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Mythological Masti
Mythological Masti

{> Ramanand Sagar's Ramayan & Shri Krishna AT#1 <} (Page 32)

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Posted: 24 November 2011 at 4:01pm | IP Logged

A sig I made from RSK...which shade wins?

 

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Posted: 25 November 2011 at 4:39am | IP Logged
Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

Thanks for the welcome, Shivang! I wasn't sure if this was something you and Aradhana were discussing between yourselves, so I did not want to intrude, but I couldn't resist, lol.

 
 
I am not sure actually if they went back to Vaikuntha after each birth. It is just my theory, but you are also right. Maybe they resided in some kind of purgatory thing, waiting for their next birth to start, and after Krishna Avatar they were finally reunited with Vishnu.
 
Oh, and also, Hiranyakashipu was elder to Hiranyaksha (it says so in Vishnu Purana, the book not the show). Actually, the reason is that out of Jaya/Vijaya, Jaya was the actual one who insulted the Sanatkumaras, so he was further cursed for being on Earth longer than his brother. This is why Hiranyaksha, Kumbhakarna, and Dantavaktra, all of whom were Vijaya, were killed by Shri Hari before Jaya, so that Jaya's avatars had to be on Earth and antagonize Vishnu further. Also, Jaya's avatars were more evil if you noticed. Hiranyakashipu (who tried to kill his own son), Ravan (who stole the purity of many innocent women), and Sishupala (who tried to marry Lakshmi Avatar Rukminiji and joined hands with Jarasandh to kill Krishna).
 
Also, when the Sanatkumaras cursed Jaya and Vijaya, Vishnu gave them two choices. They could either be born on Earth seven times as his devotees, or three times as his enemies. Jaya and Vijaya chose the second choice, so that they could be united with Vishnu sooner. So, even Sishupal could not become good in his avatar, because that would be going against the curse. Though he was less evil than Hiranyakashipu and Ravan, he still had to be bad and hate Vishnu, which he did. Liberation would come naturally, because even a most evil person would merge with Vishnu when killed by his hand. He did not have to be good. Also, liberation does not come into question with Jaya Vijaya's avatars, because they were born on Earth only due to the curse, not like normal humans. They would naturally get liberation after the three births are done with.
 
Lol it is not intruding but sharing your opinionWink
Yes even I think they were just dwelling in the universe. In the serial shree brahma vishnu mahesh it is showed like that but I did not find information in the epics yet.

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Posted: 25 November 2011 at 6:06am | IP Logged
Okk. So Vishnupuran is the source. Then Ravan must be rebirth of Hiranyakashyapu. But all google search results show otherwise. Hiranyaksha and Hiranyakashyapu are the names written everywhere respectively which correspond to Ravan and Kumbhkarna. Also Hiranyakashyapu got powers through tapasya and Hiranyaaksha must be powerful naturally by birth who had to be fought with by mighty Varaah. Also you reminded me the details of the boon-curse story. So Jay had to live longer than Vijay everytime. But somewhere in the forum it is also written that Dantaavakra was probably killed after Kurukshetra war. Perhaps that was just the speculation of the writer. We don't have much popular story of it. And Shishupal didn't have to be a good person to get salvation. He could directly get it. That is exactly my point actually. But there should be some proper systematic way of praan dhaaranaa and leaving the body through Sahastrahaar chakra. Even Drona did that. Bhishma did that. Ravan had that state of consciousness that he was being uplifted by God's incarnation. Kumbhkarana had that state of consciousness. Hiranyakashyapu had that. My stress is on the process of death. How the soul left the body. What were the thoughts. What was the state of mind. Ravan's way of death can convince us about his state of consciousness about what was spiritually happening with him. Shishupal I doubt. In his case we just have to take the theory of death by Shri Hari's hand granted without logical way of salvation like we have to accept it in case of ordinary demons like Bakasur-Aghasur etc.

But having said that, I found answer from our discussion. Shishupal was neither excelling in goodness nor in evil. He was neither greatest of virtuous soul to get salvation like sages nor the greatest of powerful evils to force Vishnu to come to kill him. He didn't have that stature to make it necessary for Lord only to kill him. Anyone like Balram or Arjun or Bheem could do it. I think anything in which he excelled was the criticism. The protest. The virodh. The hatred (like Duryodhan had for Pandavas). I guess he grew birth by birth in his Virodh Bhakti. The extremity of VIRODH and that way constant meditation of Krishna negatively (like we can see in case of Kans in SK) which is found in Shishupal is not that much found in Ravan. Hiranyakashyapu had strong opposition against name of Hari but he didn't have that much of meditation of his thoughts only all the time. He didn't have that much concern or fear till the end. Shishupal towards the end showed the height of his hatred for no reason - just because Krishna took Rukmini away from him, he was abusing him on baseless grounds. I wanted some sort of natural excellence built up gradually to convince myself about salvation. VIRODH BHAKTI is a nice answer to it perhaps.

Now, for other ordinary demons, I guess they would also go to supreme abode because after their death, their soul will follow the path of Kans/Ravan - their master because they lost their lives fighting for them. Indrajeet also must have got the same GATI which Ravan got as he fought and gave up his life for Ravan. So that way many other demons who were just part manifestations of major devil (Jay-Vijay - who were Gods so in turn manifestations of God himself again) who got killed by Ram's/Krishna's companions on earth (who were again part manifestations of Vishnu/Shiv only and other Gods) must also have been liberated.

Theory of death by Vishnu's hand apart, I was just trying to analyze their deaths logically. In SK, Shishupal's subtle body (sookshma sharir) is showing the knowledge (also supplemented by Narad by reminding him the story) suddenly out of nowhere after the death of his gross body. As if he didn't need to realize anything before and while leaving his body. His subtle body had to be knowledgeable not his gross body. And his subtle body (subconscious mind) always had the knowledge or was to get the knowledge that was predetermined. Like we see Yashoda after mud eating scene getting darshan of Chaturbhuj roop. Like Krishna gives assurance to Sudama after Murli Manohar song. Then if that is the case, then there is no point in questioning the logical flow of thoughts and state of consciousness while leaving this body and way of leaving the body. I hope you both understood what I exactly mean to say and ask in my all posts.


Edited by ShivangBuch - 25 November 2011 at 9:47am

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Posted: 25 November 2011 at 9:35am | IP Logged

Here is an RSR siggie I made right now...fresh off of pixlr.Wink Once again, which shade wins?

 
 
-Janu

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Posted: 26 November 2011 at 7:44pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by ShivangBuch

Okk. So Vishnupuran is the source. Then Ravan must be rebirth of Hiranyakashyapu. But all google search results show otherwise. Hiranyaksha and Hiranyakashyapu are the names written everywhere respectively which correspond to Ravan and Kumbhkarna. Also Hiranyakashyapu got powers through tapasya and Hiranyaaksha must be powerful naturally by birth who had to be fought with by mighty Varaah. Hmm, that's weird. I've always grown up with the story that Hiranyakashyap was Ravan, and this was also shown in the movie Bhakta Prahlada (taken in Telugu but dubbed into Hindi). I guess maybe it differs from version to version? I find it more confusing that Kans, evil as he was, was not Jay or Vijay, but that would be going against the boon Vishnu gave his dwaar palakas that their evilness would decrease with each birth, so I guess it makes sense since Kans was a lot more evil than Ravan. Also you reminded me the details of the boon-curse story. So Jay had to live longer than Vijay everytime. But somewhere in the forum it is also written that Dantaavakra was probably killed after Kurukshetra war. Perhaps that was just the speculation of the writer. That could be true...I actually don't know all that much about Dantaavakra. There is very little known about him for some reason. We don't have much popular story of it. And Shishupal didn't have to be a good person to get salvation. He could directly get it. That is exactly my point actually. But there should be some proper systematic way of praan dhaaranaa and leaving the body through Sahastrahaar chakra. Even Drona did that. Bhishma did that. Ravan had that state of consciousness that he was being uplifted by God's incarnation. Kumbhkarana had that state of consciousness. Hiranyakashyapu had that. My stress is on the process of death. How the soul left the body. What were the thoughts. What was the state of mind. Ravan's way of death can convince us about his state of consciousness about what was spiritually happening with him. Shishupal I doubt. In his case we just have to take the theory of death by Shri Hari's hand granted without logical way of salvation like we have to accept it in case of ordinary demons like Bakasur-Aghasur etc. I agree with you and it makes sense, but maybe Sishupaal did receive that revelation and the writers did not write about it? After all, Veda Vyas himself does not clarify much on this story beyond that of Krishna beheading Sishupal with his Sudarshan Chakra. There is nothing about how Sishupaal's soul merged into Krishna, or Sishupaal's thoughts during the moment of his death, but I find it hard to believe that he did not have any, especially since Kans himself doubted himself many times as the time of his death approached. He began to fear for his life like Ravan did the night before he died, and he had many nightmares. Of course, Sishupal did not have that much time to dwell on thoughts before he died, but he was so close to being liberated from his curse that maybe the Lord considered it unnecessary, since Sishupal was not as evil as Ravan or Hiranyakashapu.
But having said that, I found answer from our discussion. Shishupal was neither excelling in goodness nor in evil. He was neither greatest of virtuous soul to get salvation like sages nor the greatest of powerful evils to force Vishnu to come to kill him. He didn't have that stature to make it necessary for Lord only to kill him. Anyone like Balram or Arjun or Bheem could do it. I think anything in which he excelled was the criticism. The protest. The virodh. The hatred (like Duryodhan had for Pandavas). I guess he grew birth by birth in his Virodh Bhakti. The extremity of VIRODH and that way constant meditation of Krishna negatively (like we can see in case of Kans in SK) which is found in Shishupal is not that much found in Ravan. Hiranyakashyapu had strong opposition against name of Hari but he didn't have that much of meditation of his thoughts only all the time. He didn't have that much concern or fear till the end. Shishupal towards the end showed the height of his hatred for no reason - just because Krishna took Rukmini away from him, he was abusing him on baseless grounds. I wanted some sort of natural excellence built up gradually to convince myself about salvation. VIRODH BHAKTI is a nice answer to it perhaps. Yes, that makes sense. Like Hiranyakashipu, he always abused Krishna/Hari and thus got his darshan as an enemy. I think all three of Jaya/Vijaya's births were based on virodh bhakti, since that was what they wanted over seven lives of being the Lord's devotees.

Now, for other ordinary demons, I guess they would also go to supreme abode because after their death, their soul will follow the path of Kans/Ravan - their master because they lost their lives fighting for them. Indrajeet also must have got the same GATI which Ravan got as he fought and gave up his life for Ravan. So that way many other demons who were just part manifestations of major devil (Jay-Vijay - who were Gods so in turn manifestations of God himself again) who got killed by Ram's/Krishna's companions on earth (who were again part manifestations of Vishnu/Shiv only and other Gods) must also have been liberated. Yes, that's true. Anyone killed by God or his representatives goes to heaven regardless of their sins or virtues, because it is a given, and not everyone is given that chance also.Embarrassed Remember the story of Barbarik? SK actually showed that quite well, and taught us how one can be liberated from birth and rebirth if he is killed by God.

Theory of death by Vishnu's hand apart, I was just trying to analyze their deaths logically. In SK, Shishupal's subtle body (sookshma sharir) is showing the knowledge (also supplemented by Narad by reminding him the story) suddenly out of nowhere after the death of his gross body. As if he didn't need to realize anything before and while leaving his body. His subtle body had to be knowledgeable not his gross body. And his subtle body (subconscious mind) always had the knowledge or was to get the knowledge that was predetermined. Like we see Yashoda after mud eating scene getting darshan of Chaturbhuj roop. Like Krishna gives assurance to Sudama after Murli Manohar song. Then if that is the case, then there is no point in questioning the logical flow of thoughts and state of consciousness while leaving this body and way of leaving the body. I hope you both understood what I exactly mean to say and ask in my all posts. Yes I do, you clarified it quite well.Smile I also wish to understand Sishupaal's character as I did Hiranyakashipu (can I refer to him as HK from now on? It's so much easierLOL) and Ravan, but his death happened so simply in comparison to them. Whereas Narasimha and Ram came to earth just for the purpose of killing Jaya's incarnations, Krishna did not come just to kill Sishupaal, since anyone had the power to do that. Actually, the Kauravas were all a lot more powerful than him, and so were the rakshas of Krishna's childhood. Krishna was born to defeat all the bad people on Earth, and Sishupaal just happened to be one of many...he was not that significent compared to HK and Ravan.

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ShivangBuch

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Posted: 26 November 2011 at 10:23pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

Originally posted by ShivangBuch

 Hmm, that's weird. I've always grown up with the story that Hiranyakashyap was Ravan, and this was also shown in the movie Bhakta Prahlada (taken in Telugu but dubbed into Hindi). I guess maybe it differs from version to version? I find it more confusing that Kans, evil as he was, was not Jay or Vijay, but that would be going against the boon Vishnu gave his dwaar palakas that their evilness would decrease with each birth, so I guess it makes sense since Kans was a lot more evil than Ravan.
Exactly. I also had the same comparison (Kans with Ravan rather than Shishupal with Ravan like any common kid would naturally do while comparing Ram and Krishna stories) when I was very young that Krishna took birth to kill Kans primarily and then for dharmsansthaapan over all after killing Kans (Like Ram did ideal Ramrajya after killing Ravan - the major purpose - for many years), then Kans should be the counter part of Ravan in Dwapar. At least comparable guy if not exact rebirth of him. I mean if anyone should be Ravan's rebirth, that should have been him considering his significance in the story. But your point is perfectly digestible - theory of less and less evil over 3 births. Regarding, Hiranyaksha and HK, I can recall very loosely that even SK also perhaps showed HK to be elder brother who sent Hiranyaksha on mission and after Varaah killing Hiranyaksha, he was angry and sad upon the death of his younger brother like Ravan was for Kumbhakarna. Lola will confirm that - about SK portrayal. I guess people have made a mess here just with the corresponding orders of names written then. Even in SK song of Akrur inside the river, there is mistake. Chaturtham Narhari roopam, Hiranyaaksham vadhomev. Possibly to set the poetic meter, they twisted and changed the name but it completely changed the information that we have that Narsinha killed HK not Hiranyaaksha.

That could be true...I actually don't know all that much about Dantaavakra. There is very little known about him for some reason. 
Even I also don't know so just asking therefore. Strange that he is so unpopular and insignificant character. Probably just because he was in between. He was not the evilest guy like others. Just the nature of previous birth was somewhat in tact but fair amount of realization was done as Kumbhkarna (enough just to take rebirth one more time).


I agree with you and it makes sense, but maybe Sishupaal did receive that revelation and the writers did not write about it? After all, Veda Vyas himself does not clarify much on this story beyond that of Krishna beheading Sishupal with his Sudarshan Chakra. There is nothing about how Sishupaal's soul merged into Krishna, or Sishupaal's thoughts during the moment of his death, but I find it hard to believe that he did not have any, especially since Kans himself doubted himself many times as the time of his death approached. He began to fear for his life like Ravan did the night before he died, and he had many nightmares. Of course, Sishupal did not have that much time to dwell on thoughts before he died, but he was so close to being liberated from his curse that maybe the Lord considered it unnecessary, since Sishupal was not as evil as Ravan or Hiranyakashapu.
Perhaps it is not shown in the shows but Shishupal must be knowing about his end at the hands of Krishna through some source like his mother which in turn could be knowing through some divine clue or source like sages. We know that she knew about who would be the killer of her son. She should also be knowing about who Krishna was. Lord Vishnu himself. Then at least through some external source, Shishpal had this information (whether he believed in it from outside is different thing) that he was born to be killed by the hands of Vishnu's incarnation, so in subconscious mind, he was aware that the fact and future that people were telling him about him and Krishna, if true, was going to lead to what end of his. He should also be knowing about the possibility of what he was doing while abusing Krishna subconsciously. It is just that from outside, he was egoistic and overconfident about himself and was not ready to believe that Krishna could kill him and wanted to check the prophecy. But subconsciously he had the awareness of the LIKELY result. He also knew that Krishna was the holder of the great Sudarshan discus and when it was released, he immediately felt the the fear and forthcoming end result he just tried his best to verify to be coming. He just overgambled (deliberately or mistakenly/proudly whatever) with his tongue to prove to himself and to the world that the prophecy was falsehood and he gambled his life in the process actually - this way or that way. Let's finish with. Come on. Show me if you are Vishnu or else I will prove to the world that all the claims of others about your are falsehood and how fraud and trickster you are. I guess this urge of his was extreme as Shishupal though both his previous incarnations are also of Virodh bhakti. And the same must be his thoughts prior to coming to Rajsuya yagna. His pre planning. His thoughts prior to the day when he abused Krishna in front of all to deliberately cross all his limits. I think even same can be applied to Bakasur-Aghasur etc because the also knew about Krishna's origin heard from everywhere. Subconsciously, they all were educated/warned about one POSSIBLE end of their venture and Krishna's true identity. So just a moment before their death (Just like Vaali), they could have that momentary knowledge of what was happening with them. Putna also knew. Was Tadka knowing about Ram just before he shot the arrow? That's doubtful again. Another query. Lol.


Yes, that makes sense. Like Hiranyakashipu, he always abused Krishna/Hari and thus got his darshan as an enemy. I think all three of Jaya/Vijaya's births were based on virodh bhakti, since that was what they wanted over seven lives of being the Lord's devotees.

Yes, that's true. Anyone killed by God or his representatives goes to heaven regardless of their sins or virtues, because it is a given, and not everyone is given that chance also.Embarrassed Remember the story of Barbarik? SK actually showed that quite well, and taught us how one can be liberated from birth and rebirth if he is killed by God.
Reply to both above replies as mentioned above. End of my previous paragraph. And just one minor possible correction. Not heaven. Vaikunth or Golok or Saaket. Heaven is much inferior place and people come back to earth from heaven after enjoying the fruits of their good deeds. Salvation doesn't give heaven. Just good deeds give heaven for short while. Salvation comes through realization of neutral self beyond nature of virtues and vices and it's permanent bliss. Right?


Yes I do, you clarified it quite well.Smile I also wish to understand Sishupaal's character as I did Hiranyakashipu (can I refer to him as HK from now on? It's so much easierLOL) and Ravan, but his death happened so simply in comparison to them. Whereas Narasimha and Ram came to earth just for the purpose of killing Jaya's incarnations, Krishna did not come just to kill Sishupaal, since anyone had the power to do that. Actually, the Kauravas were all a lot more powerful than him, and so were the rakshas of Krishna's childhood. Krishna was born to defeat all the bad people on Earth, and Sishupaal just happened to be one of many...he was not that significent compared to HK and Ravan.
Yes. Very valid point. But still, Krishna's incarnation to kill Kans is very much highlighted even if he had much broader purpose. Similarly, Ram killed many demons in general in the forest even before killing Ravan and even after killing Ravan, he ruled for many thousand years and also taught the lesson of woman's self respect.



Edited by ShivangBuch - 27 November 2011 at 9:41am

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Posted: 01 December 2011 at 12:15am | IP Logged

Hey my dear RSR fans yesterday n day before yesterday were two days special for every Ram bhakt coz it was ShriRam Janki Vivah n Ram Kaleu

, so I made more siggie on Wedding this time!Embarrassed 
UPDATE
Devotional
Shri Krishna
Ram Janki
__________________
MYTHOS
RS RAMAYAN
sec version
sec version
RS SK
 ____________
FANTASY
VIKRAM AUR VETAAL
______________
Thats all!
Thanx a tonne !!Embarrassed


Edited by arun-deeps - 01 December 2011 at 12:15am

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Posted: 01 December 2011 at 6:43am | IP Logged
Lovely siggies Gunia. And oh that Ram-Siya painting so closely resembles Arun-Deeps physics and faces. Smart girl.Clap You must have consciously made the choice.Big smile

And also the choice of song of first painting siggie is awesome. Divine. Sudh lo mori Gopal mai vyaakul gaiyaa teri.Day Dreaming


Edited by ShivangBuch - 01 December 2011 at 10:57am

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