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{> Ramanand Sagar's Ramayan & Shri Krishna AT#1 <} (Page 31)

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Posted: 24 November 2011 at 10:44am | IP Logged
Awesome creations, Gunu, thanks for sharing!
 
Btw, Gur made your new requests. :)

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Posted: 24 November 2011 at 10:45am | IP Logged

Here is my new request from Gur. Isn't it cute?LOL

 

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Posted: 24 November 2011 at 11:26am | IP Logged
Originally posted by lola610

Originally posted by ShivangBuch

This sounds like or creates thoughts in our mind of interesting debate something like - Ravan's Prem Lakshanaa Bhakti of Shiv (Demanding, fighting, complaining, getting angry or unhappy) arguably - not sure whether right category or not (I mean prem to dur ki baat whether he can be called real true genuine worshiper/devotee or not) - Vs Ravan's Virodh Bhakti of Vishnu (Parallel devotion/meditation of two forms of God in different ways/bhaav).
Ahhh very interesting comparison, reading the first two lines I thought you were going to go in the direction of something I heard from Morari Bapu once - that the difference between Ram and Ravan's Shiv Bhakti was that Ram idolized his calm, wise, tapasvi form while Ravan admired him in his fierce Rudra mode - unaware that that mode was meant for people who committed the kinds of deeds he ended up committing :( But since I've already heard that POV this new one comparing Ravan to himself only is really a cool way to go! Different types of devotion by the same person towards different deities we have discussed before, but not involving virodh bhakti. As for Ravan's devotion towards Shiv, I want to believe that at some point it was indeed real because IMO prayerful poetry like his Shiv Tandav Stotra do not just come to one's mind without deep divine inspiration, which in turn is a product of devotion... TO BE CONTINUED ;)

True. Poetry doesn't come that naturally without emotions even in the mind of the most skillful poet I also think. There has to be emotional involvement into the subject for excellence even if he was Shaastragyata pandit Brahmin. But his great poetic work also reflects a bit of his own mentality. He has somewhat his own imagination of Lord Shiva the way he himself is. Yo yat shraddhah sa eva sah. Jaisa uski shradhdha waisa hi wo khud. Or vice versa. The lines like 'Dharaadharendranandini' has got a fair share of weirdness of thoughts. A bit of resemblance with 'Geet Govind' perhaps.


Edited by ShivangBuch - 24 November 2011 at 11:28am

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Posted: 24 November 2011 at 11:40am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Aradhana87

Originally posted by lola610

Originally posted by ShivangBuch


And why Ravan has to take rebirth as Shishupal if he is killed by Ram and is said to have got the salvation? Why first of all Ravan had to take birth when Hiranyaksha was killed by Varah? Even if Jay had to take birth thrice, then also how can the theory that 'one who is killed by Vishnu gets immediate mukti' be wrong? And Shishupal - the last birth didn't even utter the name of Hari (which Ravan did just before dying) and also the circumstances of his death were not gradually built up like Ravan's surroundings becoming exhausted one by one with relatives breaking his ego by the end of his life when the last arrow was shot in his navel.
 
I dont know if I am right but I would like to share my opinionStarI dont think shri vishnus theory is wrong but he did not grant "jay"mukti as he is cursed. I mean he is cursed by shri vishnus devotees and as we all have hear I think..bhagwaan to bhakt ke daas hote hain.("lord is a slave to his/her devotees") so even if shri vishnu "proves his rule wrong"he will never prove the words of his devotee wrong..I think thats why this theory is not completely wrong and ultimately jay and vijay do get mukti.Smile

That's absolutely true Aradhana. But then he could still kill Shishupal-Dantaavakra only in the final birth. Did the boon also include the condition that in each birth, Jay-Vijay will have to be killed by Shri Hari only? Destiny could have built their earlier two incarnations fragile enough to be killed by any companion of Lord keeping both the theories or rule in tact.

And strangely, logically also if you notice, Shishupal seems to be the least likely to have got salvation or who deservingly should have got the salvation. Firstly, he didn't have that power or excellence or greatness or knowledge or fame which (possibly Hiranyaaksha or) Ravan had - Vibhooti of God. Secondly, he was also not given enough time like Ravan was given to reflect over his mistakes and ego. Ravan first lost all his relatives and his ego was destroyed in serial and he also uttered Ram's name in the end and shared his knowledge in the end too. Shishupal just had that little spontaneous fear of death for a while when Sudarshan followed him. Kumbhakarna always knew the end result and had the realization of whom he was fighting against. Hiranyakashyapu was given the indication by the voice from the sky (as shown in the serial if it is true) and hint by Prahallad about what was happening exactly and he had to surrender then and also evidence of Lord through the pillar's blast. I don't know how Dantavakra was killed.


Edited by ShivangBuch - 24 November 2011 at 11:42am

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Posted: 24 November 2011 at 12:15pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by ShivangBuch

Originally posted by Aradhana87

Originally posted by lola610

Originally posted by ShivangBuch


And why Ravan has to take rebirth as Shishupal if he is killed by Ram and is said to have got the salvation? Why first of all Ravan had to take birth when Hiranyaksha was killed by Varah? Even if Jay had to take birth thrice, then also how can the theory that 'one who is killed by Vishnu gets immediate mukti' be wrong? And Shishupal - the last birth didn't even utter the name of Hari (which Ravan did just before dying) and also the circumstances of his death were not gradually built up like Ravan's surroundings becoming exhausted one by one with relatives breaking his ego by the end of his life when the last arrow was shot in his navel.
 
I dont know if I am right but I would like to share my opinionStarI dont think shri vishnus theory is wrong but he did not grant "jay"mukti as he is cursed. I mean he is cursed by shri vishnus devotees and as we all have hear I think..bhagwaan to bhakt ke daas hote hain.("lord is a slave to his/her devotees") so even if shri vishnu "proves his rule wrong"he will never prove the words of his devotee wrong..I think thats why this theory is not completely wrong and ultimately jay and vijay do get mukti.Smile

That's absolutely true Aradhana. But then he could still kill Shishupal-Dantaavakra only in the final birth. Did the boon also include the condition that in each birth, Jay-Vijay will have to be killed by Shri Hari only? Destiny could have built their earlier two incarnations fragile enough to be killed by any companion of Lord keeping both the theories or rule in tact.

And strangely, logically also if you notice, Shishupal seems to be the least likely to have got salvation or who deservingly should have got the salvation. Firstly, he didn't have that power or excellence or greatness or knowledge or fame which (possibly Hiranyaaksha or) Ravan had - Vibhooti of God. Secondly, he was also not given enough time like Ravan was given to reflect over his mistakes and ego. Ravan first lost all his relatives and his ego was destroyed in serial and he also uttered Ram's name in the end and shared his knowledge in the end too. Shishupal just had that little spontaneous fear of death for a while when Sudarshan followed him. Kumbhakarna always knew the end result and had the realization of whom he was fighting against. Hiranyakashyapu was given the indication by the voice from the sky (as shown in the serial if it is true) and hint by Prahallad about what was happening exactly and he had to surrender then and also evidence of Lord through the pillar's blast. I don't know how Dantavakra was killed.
 
This info I am sharing from the serial vishnupuran so I dont know if it is true..there they mention that shri hari has to kill them in each life and after being killed for the third time they will get mukti.
I think Shishupal got enough time, his mother tried to convince him and he knew about his 100 mistakes "limit" but he refused to believe it. About Dantvakra I am not sure but I thought Kans was jay or vijay...

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Posted: 24 November 2011 at 12:29pm | IP Logged
Shivang and Aradhana,
 
Hope you don't mind that I'm joining in your discussion, but just wanted to add my views to see if it would help.Embarrassed
 
Jay and Vijay were blessed by Vishnu that only he would kill them in each of their three avatars, so that they could return to his divine abode after each one. If you notice, Ravan was not born right after Hiranyakashipu, and Sishupal was not born right after Ravan was killed, so Jay and Vijay were not reborn right after they were killed by Vishnu in each avatars. They returned to Vaikunth momentarily and then were reborn again when the Lord needed them. In this way, the rule that anyone killed by Vishnu would reach salvation cannot be wrong. Also, Jay and Vijay were Gods, so would Gods really achieve salvation?
 
Also, Vishnu gave them a boon that with each avatar, they would be less evil than the last. Hiranyakashipu and Hiranyaksha were the worst. Ravan and Kumbhkarn were bad, yes, but they were better, whereas Sishupal and Dantavaktra were quite paltry compared to the other two. This signifies that with the end of each avatar, Jay and Vijay were getting closer to being reunited with Vishnu permanently.

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Posted: 24 November 2011 at 1:02pm | IP Logged
@ Aradhana

Kans was Kaalnaimi's rebirth. Yes. He (Shishupal) was given enough time by his mother and even Krishna to reflect upon his mistakes. And Bhishma also had raised exactly the issue of Krishna's supremacy and Godhead at that very moment in his mind. But the way he has been portrayed in the serials, he is not that impressive enough to be having that intellectual level or depth of thoughts to dig into his ego and self. He is too gross and immature to be reflective. Not the case with Ravan particularly the way we can see him on the night before last war. Then speaking chronologically from the first event, night after Angad vishti, after he was disarmed, after Kumbhakarna's death, after Meghnaad's death, etc.

@ Janaki

Oh you are always most welcome to express your ever useful opinion like Aradhana's view added a great value. The question was open and discussion was open and loving the way it is developing. Hiranyakashyapu was Kumbhakarna not Ravan btw. Hiranyaaksha killed by Varaah - The boar - the elder brother became the elder brother in both Treta and Dwapar again as far as I know and have read. I may be wrong though. I don't remember SK dashaavataar story much whether they have shown Hiranyaaksha as elder or younger brother since I have seen it only once or twice. And Vishnupuran I haven't seen yet.

What you and Aradhana have said combine completely makes sense. Your point of time gap between births well taken. They did neither go to heaven nor to hell. They just returned back to their abode but had their job still unfinished to make the curse of Sanatkumars true. I think probably Lola might also agree to this POV of yours and now ours. Well getting back own status by permanent Gods is also a kind of salvation. So right. Birth 3 times. Salvation also 3 times. Each time incarnating with a purpose. Each time salvation from the sansaar. 3rd time was final. But then...in between when they were in Vaikunth, can't the curse be said to be suspended for that much duration? Can it be the case? If they were allowed to reunite with Vishnu or temporarily regain their status and knowledge of self as gatekeepers, what is the sense or essence of the effect of the curse going on continuously? If the curse cum boon was not over, they shouldn't have got their place back temporarily even.

And Shishupal certainly was less evil than previous two incarnations. But as per my theory, then he was nowhere. He was stuck in the middle. He was neither as supreme as Ravan in excellence nor as spiritually upgraded and realized soul like saints. He could then only or should then only get salvation after turning into good guy, then better guy and then best guy like sages or Gopis. That only can be the right logical transforming journey towards salvation. Tamas to Rajas then Rajas to Satva and then Satva to Gunaateet rather than directly Gunaateet from Tamas. Otherwise if he had to get salvation like Ravan or Hiranyaaksha, being evilest guy had nothing to do with the likelihood of salvation IMO. That is just virtue/vices which gives a person knowledge or hides it. If that same knowledge or realization directly come in some way, one can be lifted from any yoni when that creature is just acting in most natural way with which it was born. It was the power and stalwart figurehead of Ravan which should have fetched him the salvation. The God content was there in him already in some way far more than Shishupal I would say. Evil was just his nature. Prakriti. Tamas and Rajas. But vibhooti in him of God was apparently lakhs of times higher than Shishupal. Excellence, fame and power. So, Shishupal becoming better guy or less worse guy than Ravan was doesn't convince me satisfactorily, On the contrary, it takes me away from the ending point more in order to move further then in that path. Reference - Adhyay 10 Vibhooti yog and Adhyay 14 Gunatrayvibhaag yog of Geeta.


At some point, we can also place this question in doubt thread also it seems if it is worth and unconcluded topic over here.


Edited by ShivangBuch - 24 November 2011 at 1:19pm

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Posted: 24 November 2011 at 2:24pm | IP Logged

Thanks for the welcome, Shivang! I wasn't sure if this was something you and Aradhana were discussing between yourselves, so I did not want to intrude, but I couldn't resist, lol.

 
 
I am not sure actually if they went back to Vaikuntha after each birth. It is just my theory, but you are also right. Maybe they resided in some kind of purgatory thing, waiting for their next birth to start, and after Krishna Avatar they were finally reunited with Vishnu.
 
Oh, and also, Hiranyakashipu was elder to Hiranyaksha (it says so in Vishnu Purana, the book not the show). Actually, the reason is that out of Jaya/Vijaya, Jaya was the actual one who insulted the Sanatkumaras, so he was further cursed for being on Earth longer than his brother. This is why Hiranyaksha, Kumbhakarna, and Dantavaktra, all of whom were Vijaya, were killed by Shri Hari before Jaya, so that Jaya's avatars had to be on Earth and antagonize Vishnu further. Also, Jaya's avatars were more evil if you noticed. Hiranyakashipu (who tried to kill his own son), Ravan (who stole the purity of many innocent women), and Sishupala (who tried to marry Lakshmi Avatar Rukminiji and joined hands with Jarasandh to kill Krishna).
 
Also, when the Sanatkumaras cursed Jaya and Vijaya, Vishnu gave them two choices. They could either be born on Earth seven times as his devotees, or three times as his enemies. Jaya and Vijaya chose the second choice, so that they could be united with Vishnu sooner. So, even Sishupal could not become good in his avatar, because that would be going against the curse. Though he was less evil than Hiranyakashipu and Ravan, he still had to be bad and hate Vishnu, which he did. Liberation would come naturally, because even a most evil person would merge with Vishnu when killed by his hand. He did not have to be good. Also, liberation does not come into question with Jaya Vijaya's avatars, because they were born on Earth only due to the curse, not like normal humans. They would naturally get liberation after the three births are done with.

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