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Same sex attraction. Should it be stopped? (Page 40)

Rehanism IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 04 June 2011 at 1:41am | IP Logged
A note worthy take on Homosexuality in Hinduism. The article was too long, covering 26 pages (PDF), but I am posting the conclusion/jist here.

Modern Indian Puritanism

It is quite stupefying that in a country which produced the Kama Sutra and assimilated ecstasy into mystical experience there should be a strong puritanical bias in a world which is becoming more liberal by the day. This puritanism of modern India, mostly restricted to the managerial class, is largely a product of Islamic and Anglo-Saxon prejudice. Unfortunately most Hindus who are educated in India passed through a Christian orientated educational system which inculcates Anglo-Saxon-Victorian values.

Whilst being profoundly lapse in the study of their own faith it is very easy to overlay the
inculcated values over a shallow Hindu socio-cultural awareness. Hence we find highly
educated Indian managers denying that homosexuality exists in India and that it is a foreign
vice!

The Indian penal code promulgated by Nehrus's socialist government first enacted article
377 punishing "sexual relations against nature with a man, woman or animal, whether the
intercourse is anal or oral." There is a move afoot to have it removed but the struggle still
goes on and there have been and are prosecutions under this act.

The Summary of Homosexuality & Hinduism


When discussing controversial issues in Hinduism one needs to take into account a number of factors. There are those acts which are crimes and there are those acts which are categorised as sins. There are crimes which are not sins and sins which are not crimes.
Crimes are acts which are contrary to establishes Law (usually civil) and sins are religious offences which are usually never crimes. In the west there is a separation between religion and law. In ancient India there was no such distinction.

Sin in Hinduism

Christians declare homosexuality to be a sin, an act hateful in the eyes of their god. There are some modern Hindu commentators who, mimicking their christian mentors, concur with them! But the term "sin" is very differently understood in the true Hindu context. There are a large number of terms which indicate different ideas. But are all translated by the English term sin.

Papa ' an act which causes demerit being defined as causing suffering to another being.
Vipatti ' failure to fulfil some duty
Klesha ' defilement
Aparadha ' a ritual or protocol offence against either the deity, guru or other devotees.
Dosha ' a character fault
Pataka ' an act causing loss of caste
Dushkrta ' misconduct
Agha ' misdeed
Amhas ' blame
Agas ' heedlessness
Drugdha ' transgression
Abhidroha ' an act based upon hatred
Enas ' contamination, physical or mental
Anrita ' untruth ' an act against the laws of nature
Durita ' a ritual offence against the gods
Droha ' an act of maliciousness against the gods


Before an act can be declared a Sin one needs to ask the following questions:'

1. Is it a crime ' in other words an act contrary to the Law?
2. Is there a victim ' has any suffering been intentional caused to another being?
3. Has the actor done anything which would compromise their social status (i.e, "
results in loss of caste")?
4. Has the actor compromised their ritual purity.

In consensual adult sex between members of the general Hindu community the answer to all of these would be no!

A Srivaishnava Perspective

Being a non-dogmatic and non-institutional faith community, there can be no official Hindu dogma or position on the subject of homosexuality or "gay marriage'.

Firstly to judge whether something is morally wrong or right we need to establish that there was free-will and ability to choose in the matter. The Hindu Scriptures declare that homosexuality is an orientation which is karmically predisposed and not a matter of choice.

The Self (jiva) which is enveloped by ignorance, is sometimes embodied as a male, sometimes as a female, sometimes as a homosexual (ubhaya). According to its deeds and the nature one acquires thereby, one may be born as a god, a human or a beast. (Srimad Bhagavatam 4.29.29.)

Whatever the sexual orientation of the child whether it be male, female or homosexual (napumsaka) it is born in the ninth or the tenth month. (Garuda Purana. 2.32.29)


In fact one need not refer to scripture for support when every homosexual will testify that they had no choice in the matter!

"Against the natural order" argument also does not stand because if we use animals as the "natural" yardstick then every aspect of human life is against the natural order ' from clothing to housing to food etc.

Chapter 9 of the Kama Sutra is dedicated to oral sex in general with the major part dealing
with this particular activity between men. Interestingly enough Vatsyayana also mentions
that some people "marry" (parigraha) members of their own sex and live together either
openly or in secret.


Edited by Darklord_Rehan - 04 June 2011 at 2:34am

-Believe- IF-Stunnerz
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Posted: 04 June 2011 at 2:13am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Darklord_Rehan

NARTH can cure homosexuality. eh?
Read this

Position of professional organizations on sexual orientation change efforts

Main Article: Sexual orientation change efforts

In 2009 anAmerican Psychological Association research summary[36] --

 
According to Psychiatric
News,
survey in the journal Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality showed that 69 percent of
psychiatrists disagreed with the vote, and still considere d homosexuality a disorder. Bayer
remarks that the APA:
 
American Psychological Association'which is three times larger than the
APA
' voted to follow suit, and soon the National Association of Social Workers did likewise.
The seventh printing of the DSM in 1974 placed a special note that announced that the
APA had "voted to eliminate Homosexuality per se as a mental disorder and to substitute
therefor (sic) a new category titled Sexual Orientation Disturbance."
 
VOTING= POLITICSSmile(US lobby)
 
The new entry read as
follows:

302.0 Sexual Orientation Disturbance [Homosexuality]
This is for individuals whose sexual interests are directed primarily toward people of the
same-sex and who are either disturbed by, in conflict with, or wish to change their sexual
orientation. This diagnostic category is distinguished f rom homosexuality, which by itself,does not constitute a psychiatric disorder. Homosexuality per se is one form of sexual
behavior, and with other forms of sexual behavior which are not by themselves
psychiatric disorders, are not listed in this nomenclature.
 
 
 
Another:
Homosexuality is an issue that has often been mishandled by therapists due to misinformation on the topic. Although not supported by the research, many therapists believe that homosexuality is solely biological in nature, and therefore unchangeable. Yet despite ongoing efforts, researchers have not discovered a biological basis for same-sex attractions. In fact, many researchers hypothesize that a homosexual orientation stems from a combination of biological and environmental factors.
 
Genes + Brain Wiring + Prenatal Hormonal Environment = Temperament
Parents + Peers + Experiences = Environment
Temperament + Environment = Homosexual Orientation
 
by Julie Harren, Ph.D., LMFT
 
 
 
 


Edited by Believe - 04 June 2011 at 2:49am
Rehanism IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 04 June 2011 at 2:32am | IP Logged
From the previously mentioned theories/extracts of Hindu scriptures the following might be concluded :

1. Hinduism agrees that Homosexuality is not a choice but an inborn trait.

2. Since its not a choice and consensual sex of any form doesn't harm anyone, it can not be considered a sin or crime against nature. The word nature itself is too vast to be confined into a particular definition.

3. Homosexuality is NOT a Western Culture. It was very much present in India since time immemorial. In fact its Westerners who practiced narrow minded and conservative prosecution of gays and imposed such laws upon us and our minds. But unfortunately, today everyone thinks that our society is conservative and their's is liberal.

4. Kama Sutra explicitly describes ways and positions of Homosexual engagement, which proves that homosexual relations, even marriage, were not only present, but were ethically acceptable as well, in the Indian society of that time.


Edited by Darklord_Rehan - 04 June 2011 at 2:37am

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Faraan92

Rehanism IF-Dazzler
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Posted: 04 June 2011 at 2:45am | IP Logged
@return_to_hades - You were absolutely right about this NARTH. Holy Shit!!
ROFLROFLROFLROFLROFL

I mentioned the opinion of WHO, APA, British, Australian, German, Japanese, Norwegian Medical/Health Institutes who have collectively trashed this NARTH and its cock and bull stories with scientific evidence and even after that some people are posting the crap argument of NARTH to justify that homosexuality is 'mental illness'!!

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Faraan92

-Believe- IF-Stunnerz
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Posted: 04 June 2011 at 2:47am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Darklord_Rehan

From the above theories/extracts of Hindu scriptures the following might be concluded :

1. Hinduism agrees that Homosexuality is not a choice but an inborn trait. --another word is Disorder peoplesLOLnvmdWink

2. Since its not a choice and consensual sex of any form doesn't harm anyone, it can not be considered a sin or crime against nature. The word nature itself is too vast to be confined into a particular definition.  --No, In india, It offends believers!! As per Law these acts against current social system and society!

3. Homosexuality is NOT a Western Culture. It was very much present in India since time immemorial.  Still these kind of things immoral in indian culture...In fact its Westerners who practiced narrow minded and conservative prosecution of gays and imposed such laws upon us and our minds. But unfortunately, today everyone thinks that our society is conservative and their's is liberal.


4. Kama Sutra explicitly describes ways and positions of Homosexual engagement, which proves that homosexual relations were not only present, but were ethically acceptable as well, in the Indian society of that time.-- I think I miss that pages...can you tell/give the link ,which page Vathsayana  mention these things Confused
 

Edited by Believe - 04 June 2011 at 2:51am
Rehanism IF-Dazzler
Rehanism
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Posted: 04 June 2011 at 2:57am | IP Logged
Correction - it offends fools, not believers. Those who believe in facts shall welcome it, as millions over the world has done. Those who wish to live in their own delusive world, oblivious from reasons or facts, will call it disorder or anomaly or even 'sin'.

As I said a million times before, laws should be framed on the basis of broad minded sense of justice, equality and freedom, not some crap misconception or myth which has no factual or logical basis.

I have quoted an extract from the text, which was there in the PDF article which I had mentioned. Plus, I had already posted earlier that homosexuality was acceptable in Indian society. I think this forum would not allow me, but I can show you stone-carvings of homosexuality and male-male oral and anal sex, from Indian historical/religious sites.

Listen Believe ji, I have said this earlier, I don't want to bang my head on the wall. Those who are sleeping, I can wake them up. But those who have intentionally shut their eyes and ears, even God cannot help them anyway.

So kindly don't bother quoting or replying. I am fed up reiterating the same points a hundred time, which has no effect on your adamant fallacies.

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Faraan92

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Posted: 04 June 2011 at 3:24am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Darklord_Rehan

Correction - it offends fools, not believers. Those who believe in facts shall welcome it, as millions over the world has done. Those who wish to live in their own delusive world, oblivious from reasons or facts, will call it disorder or anomaly or even 'sin'.
 
If you are a atheist...thats also a type of belief...so you dont have any rights to say other believers are fools and other blah blah things...thats your foolishness..plz dont prove!!.

As I said a million times before, laws should be framed on the basis of broad minded sense of justice, equality and freedom, not some crap misconception or myth which has no factual or logical basis.
Tell me the logic...you says American association is always Right ,I like NARTH studies...is it Wrong!!Smile 

I have quoted an extract from the text, which was there in the PDF article which I had mentioned. Plus, I had already posted earlier that homosexuality was acceptable in Indian society. I think this forum would not allow me, but I can show you stone-carvings of homosexuality and male-male oral and anal sex, from Indian historical/religious sites. I asked simple thing,Did you ever readed Vathsyana's KS!!  then from Vathsyana's Kamasutra give me the page no/link as u mention above! ...just for reading!Smile

Listen Believe ji, I have said this earlier, I don't want to bang my head on the wall. Those who are sleeping, I can wake them up. But those who have intentionally shut their eyes and ears, even God cannot help them anyway. --If you are sleeping am ready to wakeup you!!!  You cant find the real truth when you believe blindly one logic!

So kindly don't bother quoting or replying. I am fed up reiterating the same points a hundred time, which has no effect on your adamant fallacies. -- If you say 100 times same thing, it doesn't mean you are right!!!Big smile  Anyway we are in different path!!.. I respect your thought...Keep it up!!  Thank you!
 
Rehanism IF-Dazzler
Rehanism
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Posted: 04 June 2011 at 4:33am | IP Logged
Are u dumb? This has got nothing to do with atheism. Do you think all those people who support LGBT rights are atheist? In fact they are much greater believers than you, the so-called 'defender of religion and culture'. Because they believe that way to God is through love, social equality and justice, and not some crap baseless myths. A relationship based on mutual love can never be against God. By abusing God's creations and punishing people for their birth, they'll only be revealing their narrowmindedness and ignorance.

You are completely averse to facts. That is the main point. Facts do not change for atheists or theists. Facts remain facts. Scientific proofs will not change if we choose to disregard them.

NARTH has no credibility and that has been proven by multiple international organizations including WHO, which considers Homosexuality as a normal positive sexual orientation and NOT a disorder. Not just APA, I have provided a whole bunch of organizations and countries which have changed their outlook about homosexuality and have legalized it. Even India is one of those countries and I am proud of it.

And please, you don't believe in NARTH; you just believe, or should I say you WANT to believe, that homosexuality is a disorder by all means. So sometimes you speak of NARTH, sometimes 'holy' books, sometimes Western/Indian culture and sometimes societies, but most of the times, your arguments have been countered and disproved. You are too desperate to prove your fallacy, but till now you haven't provided a single evidence to support your point.

Fortunately I am not sleeping, if I had been sleeping, I too had been making blank statements with sheer obstinacy and adamant ignorance.

As for Kama Sutra, I have got in PDF format. I have posted extracts but I can't post the entire PDF. It covers 89 pages. You may google it and see Chapter 9. It mentions 3 kinds of homosexuals - homo men who behave like men (Gays), men who behave like women (Hijras) and women who love women (Lesbians). And there's also explanation of their sexual engagement.

But then, what's the point? If you had to see facts, you would have seen it a long time back. Even the TM, who had started this thread as an opponent of homosexuality, has now changed his mindset and believes that its an uncommon but acceptable behaviour and not a disorder. But even after all this argument, you haven't budged.

As for respecting, I can never respect something which is unjust or prejudiced. But yeah, there's no point in arguing if you are not ready to welcome rationalism and I am not ready to give in to conservatism.


Edited by Darklord_Rehan - 04 June 2011 at 5:01am

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Faraan92

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