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Same sex attraction. Should it be stopped? (Page 31)

Rehanism IF-Dazzler

Joined: 07 August 2010
Posts: 3492

Posted: 01 June 2011 at 2:08pm | IP Logged
Ok KAL You claim that Gay marriages should be discouraged but I haven't seen you providing a single valid reason to back your argument, apart from that 'socially and traditionally acceptable' thingy.

Let me tell you, a hundred years back there were many 'socially acceptable' practices like Apartheid, racism, widow burning etc. But now all these are considered crimes in the same societies. Because some morally awakened leaders exposed the hollowness of such practices with their logical argument. The same goes for discrimination against homosexuality as well. If today homosexuality is not socially acceptable, tomorrow it will be. Change is the only law of nature.

You ask me what should be the yard stick to call a custom or practice as unjust or outdated. The answer is Rationalism and Science. If a practice has no logic or rationale behind it, then it should be abolished. But homosexuality is very much a scientific and rational behaviour and as I said most doctors, lawmakers and intellectuals all over the world has agreed to it.

As for gay marriage being 'unnatural' because they cannot procreate, this matter of procreation has been debated extensively in this thread and I believe even the TM has agreed that procreation need not be the ultimate goal of a marriage. And if you think only procreation is natural then why is the same nature being so adversely affected by the population explosion in countries like ours?

There are countless orphans in the world and the gay/lesbian parents may adopt them if they wish to. And stay assured that adopted child will not 'become' homosexual in the influence of his parents, just like you will not become woman if you spend all all your life with a woman.

When I spoke about literacy and illiteracy, I didn't mean bookish knowledge. I meant wisdom, which you can get only through rational thinking and not by confining yourselves to age old traditions and customs. Moral enlightenment is truest form of literacy and one can attain such literacy even if he doesn't have academic degrees.

Discrimination against one on the basis of birth is the greatest drawback of a society and encouraging such discriminative practices is a crime against humanity in my opinion.

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Beyond_the_Veil IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 12 February 2008
Posts: 11413

Posted: 01 June 2011 at 2:33pm | IP Logged

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Rehanism IF-Dazzler

Joined: 07 August 2010
Posts: 3492

Posted: 01 June 2011 at 8:07pm | IP Logged
^^Wow thanks for the awesome article. That's really whole lot of valid reasons why the SC needs to legalize and recognize homosexual marriage and not just "consensual physical relationship between two homosexuals".

As the article points out, in case of medical emergencies, the doctors require the consent of the legally wedded spouse to carry out an operation or accept/donate blood. That won't work for live-in partners or if the relationship is not official.

The same goes for pension benefits as well. Its given only to the legally wedded spouse and not anyone else.
Summer3 IF-Stunnerz

Joined: 24 September 2007
Posts: 44415

Posted: 01 June 2011 at 8:27pm | IP Logged
This article explains Homosexuality and its origins.
But the para below indicates that:
homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation

Sexual orientation change efforts

There are no studies of adequate scientific rigor to conclude whether recent sexual orientation change efforts do work to change a person's sexual orientation. Those efforts has been controversial due to tensions between the values held by some faith-based organizations, on the one hand, and those held by lesbian, gay, and bisexual rights organizations and professional and scientific organizations, on the other. The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions is that homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation.[3] The American Psychological Association says that "most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation".[77] Some individuals and groups have promoted the idea of homosexuality as symptomatic of developmental defects or spiritual and moral failings and have argued that sexual orientation change efforts, including psychotherapy and religious efforts, could alter homosexual feelings and behaviors. Many of these individuals and groups appeared to be embedded within the larger context of conservative religious political movements that have supported the stigmatization of homosexuality on political or religious grounds.[3]

No major mental health professional organization has sanctioned efforts to change sexual orientation and virtually all of them have adopted policy statements cautioning the profession and the public about treatments that purport to change sexual orientation. These include the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American Counseling Association, National Association of Social Workers in the USA,[78] the Royal College of Psychiatrists,[79] and the Australian Psychological Society.[80] The American Psychological Association and the Royal College of Psychiatrists expressed concerns that the positions espoused by NARTH are not supported by the science and create an environment in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.[79][81]

The American Psychological Association "encourages mental health professionals to avoid misrepresenting the efficacy of sexual orientation change efforts by promoting or promising change in sexual orientation when providing assistance to individuals distressed by their own or others' sexual orientation and concludes that the benefits reported by participants in sexual orientation change efforts can be gained through approaches that do not attempt to change sexual orientation".[

return_to_hades IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 24110

Posted: 01 June 2011 at 9:28pm | IP Logged
Golden Girls puts forth marriage equality in the simplest way

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return_to_hades IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 24110

Posted: 01 June 2011 at 11:19pm | IP Logged
Double edge of Democracy: Leaders in democracy are elected by a majority. Legislation in democracy requires majority. However, the notion that democracy is "majority rules" is a mistaken notion. That is why minority rights, special interests are center place in democracy. That is why democracies have judicial and executive branches that don't answer to majorities or constituents to ensure "fairness". There are checks and balances against each other. The pillars of democracy are liberty, equality and fraternity NOT majority. That is why democratic decisions should not merely uphold majority but embody liberty, equality and fraternity. And yes these concepts are fluid and perceptions change with time.

There are other systems like oligarchy, tyranny, anarchy etc where the largest and most powerful groups of population vie for control.

Moving on to homosexuality

The natural/normal debate: Homosexuality is both natural and normal in the biological sense, as it exists naturally in nature and it is not a dysfunction or disorder. It is rather more uncommon or different rather than abnormal or unnatural. Licensed experts from accredited establishments will back this. Doctors or experts who disagree don't have reputable credentials.

The human body is designed to engage in and enjoy both heterosexual as well as homosexual intercourse. Even heterosexual couples will also engage in activities that are characteristic of homosexual intercourse. Even homosexuals are completely capable of engaging in intercourse with the opposite sex to procreate.

So the procreation or nature arguments against homosexuality are moot and unsubstantiated unless we prove and agree upon that

- procreation is the purpose of nature
- only intercourse for procreation is natural and normal

Thereby resulting that

- all humans unable to conceive are against nature
- all human intercourse without intent to procreate is unnatural and abnormal

The Marriage Question:  Marriage in my personal opinion is a commitment people make because they love each other and want to spend their lives together. It is a very personal and emotional commitment on the foundations of love.

However, I will admit there are different notions of marriage

A legal notion: As a constitutional right given to adult citizens, with certain privileges
A religious notion: How one's religion defines and sanctifies it
A social notion: How society views and sanctions it
A personal notion: A personal perception based on personal views and influences from other three.

When we speak of marriage equality, we speak of the legal right to make that commitment and enjoy the privileges. It ought to extend to all citizens equally. Denying gay people the rights of marriage is willful discrimination. It is not a demand for a "special" privilege, but a request for "equal" treatment. Civil Unions and Domestic Partnerships are good, but are just as good as the separate but equal concept where a black person was not good enough to go to a white school.

The fact that in many places people are going about to make special laws prohibiting gay marriage or trying to make constitutional amendments to redefine marriage proves that people are actually trying to change the "Legal" notion, force it to "discriminate" so that they can get "special" treatment protecting their "religious, social or personal" notions.

Don't like gay marriage. Don't get one. Supporting someone else's rights does not mean you have to give up your religious, social or personal notion of one marriage is.

This is exactly why I am against marriage. A beautiful bond between loving humans is being reduced to a social contract for procreation and propagation of belief systems. It has become an institution that supports commitment contracts for money, for immigration, for procreation, for societal conformation - but denies it for people in love who simply want to spend their life together.

Bottom Line - Should it be stopped?

I can't expect everyone to support homosexuality. People have the right to their opinions and their beliefs. People have the right to have their thoughts and beliefs against homosexuality. However, I hope that people can agree to disagree and maintain a status quo. If you cannot support it, don't discourage it or try to stop it.

The truth is when we discourage homosexuality we discourage people from being themselves, denying them their self, who they were born as. Things that are discouraged are harmful or wrong in some way, homosexuals are just normal ordinary human beings who love the same sex rather than the other. When we discourage homosexuality we implicitly send the message to other humans that there is something harmful or wrong in their very existence.

One can be friends with gay people and interact with gay people without prejudice, but that does not negate the fact that every act done to discourage homosexuality, contributes to a society that discourages society. Such a society means angst ridden teens lost, confused and afraid to be who they are because society discourages them. Frightened, suicidal youth afraid of being bullied or made fun of because society discourages them. Insecure adults who marry and live lies because they want to fit in and not be outsiders. Parents afraid to support their children who are gay because society discourages it. Parents ashamed of their own children because society discourages it.

The least one can do is be neutral, rather than contribute to the forces that discourage others.

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-Believe- IF-Stunnerz

Joined: 03 December 2005
Posts: 25723

Posted: 01 June 2011 at 11:53pm | IP Logged

There are people with various perversions, do we legalise them all ?For example there are people with sexual fixations on their father or mother.If there are a thousand of such people in a billion, and if they keep clamouring, will our judiciary legalise that too ?Confused

Why there is no treatment for these type abnormality!!?  I think combination of Curiosity / Low Self esteem / some sexual problem might be the perfect recipe for pushing a child over the fence. Since he might have felt like this from very early childhood, he might be tempted to think that he is born gay.

There are 2 things that we should try to preserve our culture and the are almost contradictory:
1. Dont call Gay as Normal. It is Abnormal. Now abnormal doesnt mean wrong. Abnormal means rare in this context. Dont promote it like the western culture does. Else more people who are on the fence will be pushed on the other side. Gay is just a state-of-mind that people surrounding you force you to believe due to lack of confidance and guilty conscious. such people should be treated psycologically with lil...I think  western infuence has enforced and over-exposed the idea which made so many so called gays in the world. if i am wrong, tell me why their are so many now since last 100 yrs.!Confused

Rehanism IF-Dazzler

Joined: 07 August 2010
Posts: 3492

Posted: 02 June 2011 at 12:49am | IP Logged
@Believe - Really? After reading your comment, I am not quite sure about who is psychologically ill and should be treated.

Gays were always there. Read Hindu scriptures. Read Kamasutra. Read Mahabharat. Read Abhigyanam Shakuntalam. And guess what they were far more recognized and respected then, than in modern society. You think Indian society was always this conservative? Then think again. Our society was one of the most liberal and advanced societies of all time. Its only after foreign invaders came and imposed their narrow minded laws on us and the British criminalized homosexuality and prosecuted them. In those days people openly recognized the presence of the third sex and nobody made the absurd claim that gays can be 'made' or that every body will 'become' gay in their influence.

Homosexuality is not a perversion so please do not equate homosexuality with pedophilia. Its a scientifically proven fact that homosexuals are as much normal as are heterosexuals. But I don't see opponents of homosexuality providing any factual argument or are paying attention to the facts that we provide. They are repeatedly and quite obstinately suggesting that being gay/lesbian is a dangerous crime that should be punished. Yeah, you may not be speaking of direct criminal prosecution, but even treating a homosexual as a weird species or suggesting mental treatment for them is a punishment for them and is enough to abate them to commit suicide.

Nobody is inducing Western Culture. We are inducing rational thinking. Reasons and NOT traditions. Krishna says in Gita "One which is not based on reasons and coherence can never be called faith - its blind faith and its better to do away with it". If a culture practices shit then its our duty to oppose that. The nation's laws are not a stooge to religion or cultures. A secular democratic nation promises to upheld social justice and that's precisely what we are trying to do. You and people like you have completely shut your eyes and ears and you see what you want to see. You don't even understand those religion which you claim to defend. For once see logic and not tradition or culture.

Edited by Darklord_Rehan - 02 June 2011 at 1:02am

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