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Lawyers are Liars (Page 3)

Mindbender IF-Sizzlerz
Mindbender
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Posted: 24 December 2010 at 6:22am | IP Logged
Originally posted by souro

I'd consider someone who goes beyond the call of his duty and helps others as great, but then helping others without any self interest inolved is not considered a profession.

Its quite impossible in my opinion. Some sort of self interest is always there, even if deeply hidden or warped.

Re topic---

Professions are not noble, people are.

xobile IF-Rockerz
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Posted: 24 December 2010 at 6:34am | IP Logged
Originally posted by souro

Originally posted by xobile


No I mean society the way people in my society perceive it. I didn't say this was my definition of noble professions. It's the definition that I think people in my society use to define the 'noble' professions. I don't necessarily subscribe to this definition.

My own view is that only nursing and teaching are noble professions because they require a great level of selflessness from those that are good at it.

<font color="#990099">So ultimately, it comes down to what some people think or what you think that some people think. That is just a perception or opinion and can't be argued for or against properly.

If it's opinion you want, then no I don't think practicing law is anything great to be considered as a noble profession and thereby higher than other professions. Fact is, I don't view any profession as something great. Everyone works for money. I'd consider someone who goes beyond the call of his duty and helps others as great, but then helping others without any self interest inolved is not considered a profession. Moreover, everyone, if they want to, can do it irrespective of what profession they are currently engaged in.</font>


Yeah, I wanted to know whether people think law is a noble profession and why they think so. And if any matters of fact pop up on the way, then people can debate that, the way you cleared up the confusion over 'necessary to society' in my post.
xobile IF-Rockerz
xobile
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Posted: 24 December 2010 at 6:48am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Mindbender

Originally posted by souro

<font color="#990099">I'd consider someone who goes beyond the call of his duty and helps others as great, but then helping others without any self interest inolved is not considered a profession. </font>

Its quite impossible in my opinion. Some sort of self interest is always there, even if deeply hidden or warped.

Re topic---

Professions are not noble, people are.



I think nursing is a noble profession because it is not very lucrative from a financial perspective - not in the UK anyway. The pay is low, hours long and pressured and union activism is not helpful. But still people work hard to join the profession. Of course, they do it because it is a vocation and they must feel immense satisfaction from their work. So it's not strict selflessness, but I'd say the willingness to give up financial rewards for vocational satisfaction is praiseworthy.

And yes, people can do much great and noble work outside of their professions. But certain professions require the above sort of diluted 'selflessness' from their best members. And marketing cigarettes or other demerit goods is a job that by itself requires people to do something that has negative consequences for society.
Mindbender IF-Sizzlerz
Mindbender
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Posted: 24 December 2010 at 7:01am | IP Logged
Oops.

Edited by Mindbender - 24 December 2010 at 7:02am
Mindbender IF-Sizzlerz
Mindbender
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Posted: 24 December 2010 at 7:02am | IP Logged

Originally posted by xobile

I think nursing is a noble profession because it is not very lucrative from a financial perspective - not in the UK anyway. The pay is low, hours long and pressured and union activism is not helpful. But still people work hard to join the profession. Of course, they do it because it is a vocation and they must feel immense satisfaction from their work. So it's not strict selflessness, but I'd say the willingness to give up financial rewards for vocational satisfaction is praiseworthy.

See again, what is being implied is that the persons are being noble. Its not that the profession is noble. For some, to achieve a nurse's pay would be enough. So, then the "profession becomes less noble" and moreover how are you so sure that all those people join the nursing profession to achieve vocational satisfaction?

Also your logic implies that those people who achieve vocational satisfaction through a profession which (coincidentally) pays them higher are not being noble.

I think eventually, what is noble are the reason for people's choices. They might do something seemingly good, but why they do it - that determines the "goodness" of their choices. Ofcourse, 'what is good' is relative.


And yes, people can do much great and noble work outside of their professions. But certain professions require the above sort of diluted 'selflessness' from their best members. And marketing cigarettes or other demerit goods is a job that by itself requires people to do something that has negative consequences for society.

So , in your opinion , these jobs are not "noble"?

souro Moderator
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Posted: 24 December 2010 at 7:11am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Mindbender

Originally posted by souro

I'd consider someone who goes beyond the call of his duty and helps others as great, but then helping others without any self interest inolved is not considered a profession.

Its quite impossible in my opinion. Some sort of self interest is always there, even if deeply hidden or warped.

Re topic---

Professions are not noble, people are.


I'll say it's difficult to corrrectly determine if it's absolutely impossible because there are instances where it's difficult to determine what made someone do an act whereby he helped someone.

For example, there was an incident in Navi Mumbai about a week ago. A 23 yo girl who was returning home from work, boarded a crowded train and somehow she lost balance and fell off the train. The passengers pulled the chain but the driver didn't stop the train. Incidentally, another train was passing by on the other track at the same time and some of the passengers in that train had heard the sound. They knew someone has fallen off, but they didn't know who has fallen off and where exactly she has fallen off. However, one 19 yo guy decided to jump off that train (that train had slowed down a bit for whatever reason and he felt he can jump off), he searched the area and found the girl lying unconcious. He carried her till the nearby highway and because no car stopped to help them, he finally managed to pull over a goods carrying van and took her to the hospital and although the girl had received injuries on her head, she survived because of the timely help.
Now there might be some reason why that guy suddenly decided to jump off the train but there may not be any reason other than helping the person who has fallen off.
I'd prefer to believe it's the latter, though I'll not be able to prove it with certainty.



Edited by souro - 24 December 2010 at 7:16am
Mindbender IF-Sizzlerz
Mindbender
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Posted: 24 December 2010 at 7:30am | IP Logged
Originally posted by souro


Now there might be some reason why that guy suddenly decided to jump off the train but there may not be any reason other than helping the person who has fallen off. I'd prefer to believe it's the latter, though I'll not be able to prove it with certainty.

The point here is why did he want to help that other person.

I think, even in the most "selfless" of persons, there are some reasons as to why they are doing a particular kind of work and which makes it 'less selfless'. Some, which i can think of-

-> Afraid of god/power.

-> Belief in karma.

-> To prove to oneself and hence self satisfaction,etc.

souro Moderator
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Posted: 24 December 2010 at 7:42am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Mindbender

Originally posted by souro


Now there might be some reason why that guy suddenly decided to jump off the train but there may not be any reason other than helping the person who has fallen off. I'd prefer to believe it's the latter, though I'll not be able to prove it with certainty.

The point here is why did he want to help that other person.

I think, even in the most "selfless" of persons, there are some reasons as to why they are doing a particular kind of work and which makes it 'less selfless'. Some, which i can think of-

-> Afraid of god/power.

-> Belief in karma.

-> To prove to oneself and hence self satisfaction,etc.


But can it be proved conclusively. Remember, although what the boy did was brave, it can also be called foolish. He could've been killed too. Is fear of god or belief in karma so strong that it'll make him disregard his own safety or fear of getting hurt or even killed?
The third reason yes plausible, but can we conclusively prove or atleast beyond reasonable doubt, that within the few seconds that he took to jump off the train, he thought through everything and determined this is my one chance to prove myself? And can we prove that everyone thinks through all the consequences and how he is going to benefit before helping someone?


A similar discussion on similar lines took place a few days earlier over here, though the topic for that was particularly about selfless help and whether it exists.

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