Joined: 31 August 2009
Joined: 03 November 2010
Chidiya Ghar Banner Contest Winner
Joined: 13 October 2010
Joined: 16 April 2008
Joined: 16 April 2008
Joined: 31 August 2009
Hello!!! Firstly, how are you? Hope all is good with you
Okay. If you would allow me to, then I would like to put just a few points of mine in this process =)
Here I am dear sister. Just became free to reply to your post after many days.
When we have to look @ Mahabharat, I think we have to see the role appointed to all the characters by God himself. See, I would not say that Arjun started his actual deed only after his son was killed. I look it as the part from where his role was to start.
Of course Aakaanksha. He lifted the bow and started fighting, so his action started immediately after Geeta. But what I meant to say was the implementation was exactly not the way Krishna wanted. He was still not in his full flow due to his emotions for Bhishma. His emotions were still coming in the way of his duty ordered by Krishna to him which he could overcome very slowly with great difficulty understandably due to the relation and his sensitive nature. And he suddenly started fighting at his best due to his anger after Abhimanyu's death. The excellence and unstoppable attack he started to show afterwards was actually the perfection of duty fulfillment Krishna wanted from him. And this is mentioned in Geeta too in Adhyay 18 verses 59 and 60. I think these verses want to mention the same thing.
Yad ahankaaram aashritya, na yotsya iti manyase;
Mithyesh vyavasaayaste, prakrutistvaam niyokshyati.
Swabhaavjen Kaunteya nibadhdha swen karmana;
Kartum nechchhasi yanmohaat, karishyasyavashopi tat.
Krishna wants to say to Arjun that right now, temporarily you are confused and saying that YOU don't want to kill your relatives, but being a kshatriya, you only will be doing the same very act in a few days naturally - accepting challenge in war, fighting for injustice (and taking revenge in a negative sense being aggressive Kshatriya nature too). And he did that naturally reacting to his son's death which he was doing half heartedly just driven by intellect obeying the order of Krishna.
It was not the drama b/w the family where innocents got killed. One of the reasons of Mahabharat taking place was also because the load of evil was increasing on mother earth. And God comes to earth to decrease that. In such cases, when a war is fought, both evil and innocent get killed. So, in those 10 days, surely many evil souls would have gotten killed too. As they say, during Mahabharat, there was so much bloodshed, that even TODAY, the land of Kurukshetra, when you dig into it, you find the mud RED. There was so much of bloodshed. Everything happened in the course of time it had to, I believe.
I accept the point. Definitely many evil men got killed in the process. But there must be some innocent soldiers as well. And even if the soldiers were killed getting their karmphal only destined to be killed in the hands of Bhishma or Arjun; what special privilege the two main warriors were having? Just the relation between them? The difficulty of killing each other being grand father or grand son can be practically understood. Psychologically I am not challenging their actions or calling it a family drama. It is too difficult for them of course. But then dharma can not be biased between your relatives and non-relatives. What is the justification of Bhishma's decision of killing Pandava's soldiers but not Pandavas and thereby showing his loyalty towards Duryodhan? In this complex approach of balancing all his dharmas, what exactly Bhishma is trying to convey? (I actually have not much problem with the death of those soldiers or can't even say that they were innocent really or didn't deserve death or anything but just wanted to emphasize on Bhishma's loose attitude/approach/treatment towards them). What did he prove by killing foot soldiers and showing off his loyalty but being firm in not killing Arjun? And Arjun was extending the damage and victory of dharma by allowing Bhishma to do that and also following the footsteps of his grandsire when his friends on his side were having their eyes completely on his excellence to be demonstrated. If you were not to kill each other and still were ready to fight and continue killing each others' supporters (who were not that directly but only a bit indirectly concerned with the result of the war), what other proper word I could choose other than the word 'drama'? And Arjun knew before waging the war and asking the help of those friends that he would have to put Bhishma out of the way somehow. And then becoming emotional at a crunch moment (at watching the site of gathering of relatives on the battlefield which he would have anyhow perceived when the war was decided) is nothing else but lack of clarity and stability of mind. And this is also acknowledged in Geeta.
Kutastva kashmalamidam vishame samupasthitam?
Chanchalam hi manah Krushnah, pramaadi balavad drudham.
As it said, every move, everything, every moment takes place by the will of God. And when that individual's time comes to bring the action into play, it is done. Hence, Arjun, just played his role as God would have decided for him at the time it was to be done. That is what I understand =)
Agreed again. Point well taken. But then even Bheem was chosen for killing Jarasandh, Dushasan and Duryodhan. He was also equally used by Lord to kill the evil. In fact the exact evil rather than good people on the way as obstacle in killing those evils (so one weaker point in favor of Bheem, that he had to kill the people he hated and not who he loved,.becomes stronger on the contrary here in this sense of destined & useful & easy instrument of Lord). And Arjun was even hesitant in killing Kauravas (his step brothers) as per Adhyay 1 of Geeta when they were directly guilty of big crimes left unpunished. 'Aatataayi' is the word used I suppose in Geeta. And Bheem was also given darshan by Lord Hanuman in his large form (though not vishwaroop). He was naturally and instinctively driven to punish the evil and in his decisions, commitments and mindset, was very very simple to understand. And if we say that way, then even Ravan, Kans etc also were born to perform the destined roles in the leela of God to teach the world the lesson through epics. Hiranyakahyapu, Hiranyaaksha, Ravan, Kumbhkarna and Shishupal with his brother were the births of Jay-Vijay who also were devotees of God who were destined to go back to Vaikunth. So if we support Arjun also on that basis, then we can't compare his practical/behavioural characteristics and emotional & intellectual reactions to various situations for the purpose of our learning.
Bheem on the other hand, killed more of the soldiers while Arjun was to do away with very important personalities. It required emotional support to because it was not just a mere family drama but to kill his OWN grandfather who was very dear to him. If he have to do it today to our own mother or father, tell me how much time would it take? Would we even be able to do it? I doubt. And we also have to look @ the right time of Amba's arrival and her wish being fulfilled against Bhisma. Hence, everything takes place at the time decided by god =)
I think I mostly replied to this paragraph in the previous paragraph of mine. If the goodness of Arjun is on the basis of his family bonding or emotions for the dear ones, then Bheem is also not behind in that. Despite being such a powerful man and also not always in agreement with Yudhishthir's views, he always loved his elder and younger brothers and mother in particular too much. His greatness is seen during post vaarnaavat episodes and vanparva greatly. He even weeped while watching his mother and brothers sleeping on the bare earth after Lakshagruh incident when he was patrolling at night. His family bonding was though narrower or much closed one compared to Arjun. Arjun was attached with his Guru and grandsire also whereas Bheem's love and bondage was more for his most direct and closest family members. Only that much is the difference in this argument.
Arjun had his clarity of mind too. But the Geeta gyaan was given to him not for he himself. Why would the avtaar of God himself require any confusion to be cleared? But no, it happens. For the future world to understand. And God chose Arjun to get that delivered. Not Bheem. If he had chosen Bheem, we would have gotten the Geetagyan through Bheem and not Arjun. It is all God's play in the end and the roles he chooses. Should we forget this was the SAME Arjun who had single-handedly defeated the Kaurava army that had invaded Virat's kingdom without the Geeta updesh? He was very clear at that time, that too without Lord Krishna.
Exactly. He was clear in mind in Virat war because the cause was not the land but the protection of the king of Virat as a return of obligation. And he didn't have to kill anyone. Arjun was required to be told Geeta therefore for himself at that time as he was not taking his best out which he already had delivered before considering his duty. At the stage of greater duty than duty during Virat war, Arjun was confused considering it to be a selfish act believing that they were waging war for personal cause. Bheem was not required to be told Geeta at that time. And for the world to know Geeta, we also have character of Uddhav. Krishna also told Geeta to Uddhav named as Uddhav Geeta. Only thing that Geeta is more popular in Hinduism because of the stage during which it was told. The time of Geeta was in the lime light of the entire world whereas Uddhav Geeta was told in the personal palace of Krishna at peace. Arjun was also told Anugeeta later at peace. I think we can give Arjun's curiosity the most credit positively here rather than credit given to his confused mind and thus the world getting Geeta gyan (which was in fact there always before also in the form of Vedas & Upanishads originally told by Lord to Vivasvan/Surya and then further delineated as par Adhyay 4 of Geeta but was lost over a period of time.
But during the Mahabhart, Geeta was to be told not to Arjun but to the future world. And Arjun was just an instrumental factor for that. And if we talk about interest, then how come only Arjun in the Pandava's had interest? Wouldn't that be for all? I do not see the 'Reliable' factor either. How does that come into play? Was Arjun not reliable? How come? Just because he took the Geeta gyaan? I would repeat the same then, incarnation of sage Nar would not need to be told anything for clarity of mind. It is just for the world's knowledge that they play the role. If we take God himself too, even God performs some act where he ofcourse knows about it but for the world to also know, he does such an act/acts, isn't it.
So you believe here that asking of questions by Arjun were for the world to know rather than for himself? OK. Then nothing to argue here and I acknowledge your opinion and view also to be a faithful and possible one. It was the leela of Nar's incarnation too. Even in Geeta, the verses are there for the glory of Arjun.
Yatra Yogeshwarah Krushnah, yatra Partho dhanurdharah;
Tatra Shri vijayobhutirdhruva nitirmatirmam. (Last verse of Geeta)
(However, these words of praise are the words of Sanjay and Arjun's excellence in archery was world famous by that time)
Vrushninaam Vaasudevosmi, Pandavaanaam Dhananjay.
(This is the greatest verse in the praise of Arjun. Lord says that among Pandavas, 'I am Arjun')
Now this verse of Vibhuti yog puts Arjun's glory in the sky. But then my personal observations and reactions to characteristics of Pandavas are not in harmony with it. I try to harmonize naturally all Dwapar characters with Treta characters and Vaali (Indra putra) and Sugreev (Ram's friend) both had their limitations & imperfections in character and they both share something common with Arjun. Since I look at Arjun (and Karna) related to them, Nar-Narayan mythological story becomes back seat interpretation in my case after this comparison. So either I have to accept this verse as the authoritative declaration of Lord like I believe in every other single statement of Geeta; or else I have to interpret it differently. Lord in the same 'Vibhooti yog' says:
Yadyad vibhootimat satva, shreemad oorjeetam ev va;
Tad tad ev avagachchha tvam, mam tejonsh sambhavam.
So we can say that intellect of Yudhisthir was vibhooti of lord. Power of Bheem was vibhooti of lord. Any excellence is symbol of God. Then why Arjun is called Lord among Pandavas? I guess it is because of his work excellence (Karmasu kaushalam) in archery and his attractive personality and looks. He had characteristics of both Yudhishthir and Bheem in him. Both peaceloving character and evil punishing character. But he needed Krishna's intellect to supplement the missing part (clarity of mind - mentioned in Geeta) & to guide him to choose the right one at the right time. Both Yudhishtir and Bheem behaved rightfully either naturally or because of pressure/control of each other despite being extremely opposite in nature. Arjun did that under the guidance of Krishna as requested by Indradev. If I can get the insight of the above verse with convincing interpretation,my choice will immediately change because it is God's own sentence spoken. 'I am Dhananjay' in what sense? How? Which characteristic? Was he the soul of all Pandavas therefore? Was he having FLAIR or amusing talent therefore? Was he having skin color like Narayan therefore? Or because he was the best & greatest or noblest in character? The list in Vibhuti yog is illustrative and it is meant only to explain the essence rather than catching words and considering the list to be exhaustive. As a whole in versatility, Arjun may be biggest ANSH of God among Pandavas. But in terms of intellect and knowledge, we have Yudhishthir and in terms of Simplicity and destroying evils, we have Bheem. They have Ishwariya ANSH in the sense of EXTREME characteristics rather than versatility. Specialized nature. Buddhi, Bal.
I can also put forth an example, in such a case that of Bheem's anger, which can be taken as his problem, isn't it? In which case, we'll prefer Yudhishtir's peaceful attitude which would lead to better results of a problem. As it said, any decision taken in anger does not always prove to be fruitful as opposed to that which is taken in a calm state. But Bheem was a character with anger and so he did according to that. And Yudhishtir, a man of peace. As according to how their characters must have been skethced by God and how they were to be on Earth.
I would put forward here the example of Lakshman also then sister. Like Lakshman's anger was always under control of dharma - obedience of Ram, Bheem's anger was also under outside control of Yudhisthir/Kunti/Krishna and was always naturally against evil only. Bheem has only shown instinctively anger against evil. Arjun also had ego problems. Bhishma's ego or anger also proved to be destructive for his dynasty despite the fact that he was always noble, selfless and sacrificing. So anger problem potentially is dangerous, in Bheem's case always was used by good for good. Bheem is the only Pandav among all 5 who was instinctive, natural & simple in his behaviour reminding me Ramayan characters and Vaanar-Bhalu naturally angry on Ravan for abducting Sita like Bheem naturally getting angry to give justice to Draupadi. I hardly find any action of Bheem which can't be understood by us why he is doing so. Hardly any confusing or puzzling action. Everything understandable if not justifiable at that immediate time.
In the end, as I said before, I will say it again, I think it is only God and his will according to which everything is performed and the characters play out their roles as they have to by God's wish. It was not about Arjun not having a clarity of mind hence needing Geeta updesh. The answer lies in your last line itself. For the FUTURE generation, the updesh was given to Arjun. Arjun being the instrument.
Again I would say here the same thing - Ravan was chosen by lord to give certain teachings to future generations. Dhritarashtra was also chosen for the same. And he was also an instrument along with Sanjay in a sense because that is the medium chosen by Ved Vyas to present the dialog between Krishna and Arjun privately exchanged far from all other present at the battlefield. In that case even Dhritarashtra will be better than Bheem but he never grabbed the concept of Geeta then and was hardly interested.
More importantly, Disclaimer:--
^...This is just bcoz I think I have put everything in a random manner bcoz I was having so much 2 say @ that time
LOL. And MOST importanly, dear Shivang, I hope I have not hurt you in any which way by the above reply. That is not intended at all And I hope I was polite in my response as I tried to be =) If I hurt you or something, then I am really sorry but that is not meant at all
Not at all Anku. Can I call you by that name? You were polite. If you are not polite, then I am very rude. And starting was done by me in that case. So then I will have to apologize first. In debate, everyone has to be ready for any logical argument. So no question of being hurt. The poll is precisely for choosing one out five favourite characters and then expressing the reasons for our choice logically. It is about expressing our favourite only subjectively rather than who was greater objectively. We can have any reason for liking someone which we have to compile in words and express. So you have done precisely the same. In fact, I was very excited and satisfied seeing your post. At last my message sparked something in someone to respond aggressively to make the thread going hot. As long as we are logical in expressing our views, there is no reason why someone should get hurt. Our logic may not convince others is a different thing but for that we can always try our best unless we ourselves are convinced in that process with open mind. And that is the ultimate aim of any debate. Exchange of knowledge and learning by changing each other's false beliefs and attitudes. Either convince or get convinced. This is the ideal rule of this sport. The debate is a sport. So let's play and enjoy it. Polls are meant for it (As long as we try to remain logical). And there is needed always friendly aggression in every sport. Yuvaraj will hit like anything when he is playing against Harbhajan in IPL. But they will still remain best friends. Don't worry at all. And now being even more aggressive than my earlier post, I hope I must have relieved you from that doubt. So if at all you feel hurt due to I sticking to my favourite and not changing my opinion still, you please feel free to tell me that.
And rest assured I love Arjun. But I just wanted to compare the brothers keeping the point that 'Arjun was Krishna's best friend and was told Geeta' aside because that can't be the criteria of comparing the characteristics of character directly and independently. We can have a separate topic itself discussing why Krishna might have liked Arjun the most. But who independently can be liked by us as an independent personality through his direct reason and character is a different issue. I just wanted to highlight the fact that Bheem's goodness is mostly underrated by people against Yudhisthir's goodness and Arjun's goodness. And Yudhisthir's goodness, though complicated unlike Bheem's simple to understand goodness, is negatively taken by some people as Janaki wanted to pin point. That's why I had more difficult choice between Yudhishthir (intellectually) and Bheem (emotionally). Majority of people support Arjun just because Geeta or because he was sensitive for the relatives. I therefore tried to go against the tide and went genuinely with my personal emotions. I may be wrong for sure which I clarified I think in my first post saying that "AT THE MOMENT my choice is Bheem". If I have to change my opinion in favour of Arjun due to this poll and if majle bhaiya Bheemsen, loses this poll against Krishna's dear Parth; then my feeling would be same which could be the feeling of Bheemsen himself losing against his younger brother Arjun. Feeling of love and pride. But while playing a sport, Bheemsen would try his best to defeat Arjun (or finally might try to lose also to please his brother). I would even be happy with that. I love this forum family more than my opinions & likes & favourites. But at the moment I have thrown the bowl trying to win the debate seriously . So get ready with your bat and pad. Next time in my next post, out of my great love for my dear sister Anku, I might give a lolly pop full toss and surrender. Or I might try to find some updesh given by Krishna to Bheem also to advocate my client Bheemsen better. O Lola!!! Where are you? I need help of bowling partner. Batsman is very strong.
I think only you will have patience Anku to read this long message of mine and nobody else. Let's find out who else completes this conversation of us.
Joined: 23 May 2010
Joined: 25 October 2008