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The most asked question.... (Page 2)

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..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 11 November 2010 at 9:11pm | IP Logged
Just an offhand question....what do you guys think of agnostics? Do you believe they too are confused, or do you think they are less confused than atheists?
 
Someone told me that people who are agnostics almost always turn into atheists sometime in thier life...but could the other not be true also? Do you think an agnostic can turn into a theist?

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Posted: 12 November 2010 at 7:46am | IP Logged
Originally posted by ~angelz16~

So guys, we theists are always questioned and sometimes even mocked @ one thing...
 
HOW do we know God is there? We have never seen him etc. etc. is what is usually told to us. Atheists have this one easy argument to put forward. And well, they in any case have easy arguments only cuz they say the 'burden of proof' lies on US, the believers. Which I totally don't agree with. Because we don't have to prove anything to them. It's our wish. If we want to, we will. If not, then who cares. We don't HAVE to prove it.
 
But still, if you would like to put forward some arguments as a theist then what would those be? Smile Let's discuss Smile 

Awesome topic of discussion Akanksha (I hope of I spelled it correctly in terms of number of 'A's)!!!!!!! Clap I also have faced this question a few times with my friends and had arguments also and will share them here.

Regarding the burden of proof, well I think the theory should logically be: "The person who challenges others' views should have the burden of proof or evidence or convincing reasoning or logic". Challenging other's thoughts is not actually disrespecting others' thoughts IMO and it is not actually bad in itself but it should be done only when other person is open for the debate. And true debates should follow the rule - "Either convince or get convinced". If we are peaceful and concentrate on our own individual beliefs without disturbing others' beliefs, and if others who are atheists interfere in our beliefs and challenge our thoughts, then very well they can do it without any reason for us getting hurt by that but they should first come up with reasons and not us.

And with that last point, the point of argument available with the believers as shield or weapon begins. It is clear on my part that if the 'God exists vs God doesn't exist' debate is initiated by the atheist, it is he/she who has to start proving his/her point first with reasoning. And this itself is the believer's victory. Believer can then straightaway ask the question: "You say you don't believe in God right? Now first of all, for saying that sentence, define the terms used in your arguments. Define first of all what is God according to you and then say that you don't believe in that.". Now if the other person can define a concept, then that itself means that he/she believes in the existence of that concept. If other person can't define what is God, he/she has obviously no right to challenge others in the topic in which he has zero knowledge. It becomes completely the question of faithful individual experiences which can't be made felt to others in the same way we have felt. Other person has to feel those through the open minded personality and that way process through many births. If we initiate the topic, then only we have to prove that God exists, and for that we have first to compile properly somehow in words (if at all possible to define) what is the definition of GOD as per our faith.


Edited by ShivangBuch - 12 November 2010 at 7:52am

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Posted: 12 November 2010 at 10:54am | IP Logged
sorry, editedEmbarrassed


Edited by anchal2 - 13 November 2010 at 10:06am

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Posted: 12 November 2010 at 4:45pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

Just an offhand question....what do you guys think of agnostics? Do you believe they too are confused, or do you think they are less confused than atheists?
 
Someone told me that people who are agnostics almost always turn into atheists sometime in thier life...but could the other not be true also? Do you think an agnostic can turn into a theist?


Great segway, Janu! I think an agnostic certainly can turn into a thiest - when you get further into SK, you'll see that Akrur is shown as a perfect example. What you usually hear from agnostics is something like, "I'm not too sure what I think about God but I don't think it really matters, as long as I am a good person". So, if nothing else, they are certain about the doctrine of karma, and they can be classified as imperfect karm-yogis - imperfect because as per the Gita, it gets perfect when devotion is injected into it - you act, and you offer the act to God. And that devotion only comes through some sort of experience - most often contact with a merciful guru, but in some rare cases something direct like a darshan or a miracle. Though we might think that our devotion has been a part of us since we were born and we didn't need such an experience/contact, that's usually because it happened in a past life and we just don't remember. In Akrur's case, he got that underwater vision of Shri Krishna (you'll love this scene when you get to it) and it was that experience that converted him from an imperfect karm yogi to a perfect one - one who is also a bhakt - and in our terms, an agnostic to a theist. The potential for a guru/experience exists for all, and so all agnostics do have the potential to become theists.


Edited by lola610 - 12 November 2010 at 5:03pm

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Posted: 12 November 2010 at 5:04pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by lola610

Originally posted by JanakiRaghunath

Just an offhand question....what do you guys think of agnostics? Do you believe they too are confused, or do you think they are less confused than atheists?
 
Someone told me that people who are agnostics almost always turn into atheists sometime in thier life...but could the other not be true also? Do you think an agnostic can turn into a theist?


Great segway, Janu! I think an agnostic certainly can turn into a thiest - when you get further into SK, you'll see that Akrur is shown as a perfect example. What you usually hear from agnostics is something like, "I'm not too sure what I think about God but I don't think it really matters, as long as I am a good person". So, if nothing else, they are certain about the doctrine of karma, and they can be classified as imperfect karm-yogis - imperfect because as per the Gita, it gets perfect when devotion is injected into it - you act, and you offer the act to God. And that devotion only comes through some sort of experience - most often contact with a merciful guru, but in some rare cases something direct like a darshan or a miracle. Though we might think that our devotion has been a part of us since we were born and we didn't need such an experience/contact, that's usually because it happened in a past life and we just don't remember. In Akrur's case, he got that underwater vision of Shri Krishna (you'll love this scene when you get to it) and it was that experience that converted him from an imperfect yogi to a perfect one - one who is also a bhakt - and in our terms, an agnostic to a theist. The potential for a guru/experience exists for all, and so all agnostics do have the potential to become theists.
 
I did not get to that episode yet (as you know), but I remember seeing it on youtube because someone uploaded that part and I clicked on it out of curiosity (back in the day when I knew nothing about SK, even that Swapnil acted as teen Krishna). It really was taken well, I loved it!Clap
 
And agree with you about Agnostics turning into theists. One of my friends was an agnostic, and she recently turned into a theist about an year or so ago, but I also have an agnostic friend who claims she's an atheist now, so I guess it can go both ways if a miracle does not happen 'soon enough'.

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Posted: 12 November 2010 at 6:52pm | IP Logged
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Posted: 24 November 2010 at 11:39am | IP Logged
Well, first of all, we don't have to prove anything to them. If they don't believe, no amount of proof that we put forth will convince them. Usually atheist know that they're being childish when they ask such questions as "How can you be so sure?" They just are frustrated with their own lives and their own faiths that they can't see how God could let so many problems arise. But actually there are many proofs of God everywhere.
 Without God there was about zero chance of us to actually exist if it was left to nature alone. I mean, yeah, the big bang theory and evolution is something I believe in (i am not trying to go against scientific theories), but what were the chances that those things would happen huh? Zero right? And again, when will people realize that they exist beyond this material world. They don't even need to think about the universe and creation but about themselves and ask how they could come exist. God the answer.


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