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Most overpaid/underpaid profession? (Page 30)

qwertyesque IF-Rockerz

Joined: 03 December 2006
Posts: 6567

Posted: 15 July 2010 at 10:24pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Gauri_3

Originally posted by qwertyesque

...... rahi meri baat.. wahi hoga jo manjure khuda hoga... Kaay?
Aaj main bahut khush mijaz mood main hoon.. sab kuch haseen laga raha hai  jaane kyon..
"Z" not "J'", Qwerty.  It's "manzoor" not "manjoor".  Lo, urdu mei bhi haath tang haiLOL 
Bye for now.  Sada khush raho, yeh dua hai hum sab ki. 
LOL Now that i know you are alert.......Thanks for the wishes...Smile

Mister.K. IF-Dazzler

Joined: 28 February 2009
Posts: 2950

Posted: 15 July 2010 at 11:58pm | IP Logged

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cuckoocutter Senior Member

Joined: 08 December 2009
Posts: 835

Posted: 16 July 2010 at 12:32am | IP Logged

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return_to_hades IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 24114

Posted: 16 July 2010 at 12:56am | IP Logged
[WHINE]Democratic society was created on the 'egalitarian' society model. The commoners besieging Bastille had the anthem 'Liberty, Equality, Fraternity' – one that would become the motto and modeling block for free society everywhere. The message was clear, society could no longer be divided along the hierarchical system of the haves – the kings and nobility and the have nots – the merchants, the traders, the peasants and the common man. The hierarchy had to make way for a society – where everyone was free.
All men are created equal and have equal rights, is a resounding principle that reverberates in every Democratic constitution. Throughout the evolution of modern society people have fought hard to drive in the concept of equality and equal opportunity. Society agreed that all people had the right to vote. We prohibited separation and segregation. People have the right to education, the right to own property, the right to employment. It is evident that without 'egalitarianism' most of us would be second class citizens in an hierarchy with no rights and no opportunity.
Yet despite the history of 'egalitarian' society and how every human is dependent on 'egalitarianism', many modern societies have developed a tendency to balk at 'egalitarianism' as a dirty taboo word. Despite all the equity we support and continue to support and actually depend on as humans – many seem to be averse to the concept of socioeconomic equity and parity.
So what is the reason we are averse to such equity?
One of the primary reasons is that people do not perceive such equity programs as 'fair'. In fact they perceive it as an 'unfair' system that tries to give 'special treatment' to some people. The argument is that the free market economy runs on fair demand and supply mechanisms that set everything competitively. People are free to enter and leave as they wish, put as much as effort as they wish and receive the just rewards. Everyone invests a share of time and effort and gets just the monetary rewards they deserve for that investment. Anyone who falls behind and is unsuccessful is of their own accord. They have not invested the time and effort that is needed to get the monetary rewards they desire. Any tampering with this system encourages people to be lazy and incompetent. It unfairly holds back the people who are making economic progress to provide amenities to the incompetent population.
Ideally this is the economy we want. A free market with a level playing field without monarchs and nobility or governmental control of any sort. A pure meritocracy where everyone gets their dues on their merit. Unfortunately, a meritocracy is not we have here. The monarchs and nobility of yesteryear who exploited people to create rigid hierarchies have now been replaced by modern day conglomerates who function similarly. There are several barriers built into free trade that prohibit fair competition. The lowest classes are kept suppressed beneath a certain level while the rich get richer.  Wages, prices, employment, business – nothing is conducted fairly.
Taking the Nike example – people in third world countries are willing to work long hours in sweatshops for a dollar a day simply to make ends meet. Why would Nike want to pay anyone else $15-$20 an hour for the same job? The demand is cheap labor, the supply is cheap labor – that's where the curves meet and that's where Nike is.  However, in a free market there is not a large amount of displaced labor. The equilibrium should be where a large quantity of workers work at the minimum they would wish to receive to make basic expenses – while a large quantity of workers work at the maximum they can expect to receive and live comfortably. We have an equilibrium price where most employees cannot even afford to work at equilibrium price as it falls far below the basic cost of living. Most employees working at equilibrium are working at extreme bare minimum which they are compelled to accept as equilibrium. This definitely is nowhere close to being the equilibrium as defined by market economics. Demand and supply are microeconomic principles to explain smaller markets and systems. Global society and economy is a macroeconomic market where varied  regional inflation, cost of living, unemployment rate, price indies etc impact the economics in a way that cannot be simply determined by demand supply models.
Also let us remember that this is a system where certain careers and certain jobs cap off at a level no matter how much effort an employee puts in. Let us take a social worker, non-profit lawyer etc. Many can have advanced degrees, many put in almost 60-80 hours in a week, yet they may earn far less than others who work less and have less education. Of course career is a choice and we can say they made the choice of not choosing a high pay career. But at the same time should there not be a base level of welfare/sustenance affordable to all equitably. The higher wage earners can always have access to their luxuries, but can we not have a base that is more fair.
It is the same egalitarian concept that said human beings are not slaves, the rich cannot abuse the poor, you cannot exploit one to sustain another.
However, despite awareness of inequalities and unfairness within the system – most people would rather the system have its unfair flaws rather than fix it. The perception is that the cure is worse than the disease. What is the rationale for this?
The failure of communism: One of the biggest factors making most people averse to social equity is the failure of communism. The communist system was the biggest failure on its promise. People were further exploited and suffered much more than under free market systems. Leaders usurped power and control for themselves and were ignorant as to the needs of the masses. The other flaw with Communism was equity without meritocracy. It tried to establish flat equal wages, benefits, lifestyle completely ignoring different merits ,inputs and needs of people. Clearly it was a poor economic choice system, that is a failure – it does not support equity or merit.
However, comparison to communism is unfair because communism and social equity are two completely different ball games. Communism is an extreme system. It was almost medieval in the fact that government became king (like how corporate is king in extreme capitalism). It completely ignored difference in human merit. Social equity tries to bring balance and prevent extreme capitalism.
Skepticism of Eurosocialism: Europe is often described as the role model for free markets balancing social equity. Scandinavian countries are the most liberal models, while the other countries serve as moderate models. Labor laws, market laws, business laws all put checks and balances on businesses and prevent imbalance. There are many base economic benefits afforded to all citizens. Overall the result has been successful, citizens mention being happy and satisfied with economic opportunities and outcomes. The economies have been relatively stable.
However, Europe has not been infallible to market shifts. EU countries have not been known for 'growth' really, they tend to be more 'static' economies and for more people 'dips' are better than no growth. Even India, Brazil etc have been attributed in being faster growing to watch economies. Moreover, the crashes in Iceland and Greece, and the more recent Euro value crash proved that even Euro socialism is as susceptible to capital market crashes and is impacted by it.

Most skeptics also feel that Eurosocialism is a temporary Utopia bubble that will soon break and crash just like its predecessor communism did. The security and satisfaction cannot be sustained long term or modeled elsewhere.

Eurosocialism is still a nascent idea. To call it a failure or success is too early. Only in the long run can the merit of an economic model be truly assessed. I'm positive and optimistic of the economic models, especially in Scandinavian countries. However, only over the next decade or so after this recession will we be able to better call on that model. For now it is too early for either side to call.

Fear of big Government: The primary fear for any social equity model is that lawmaking and decision making goes in the hands of the government. Considering a country like India or other similar countries, governments are so corrupt, vote driven and apathetic that it is virtually impossible to implement such models. There are also excessively large mismanaged public sectors which are actually hindering market economy and growth in India.

In the United States people have always been averse to government. Each state is constitutionally a separate part of the union and they prefer decentralization. The country was built on somewhat anti singular central power. Centralized ventures are always deemed as failures and anti-people. I can understand the case against government in India; however, USA government has achieved more and can be pushed for more.

Where there is a Will: A lot of people, especially those who have succeeded coming from humble beginnings do believe that anything can be achieved with hard work and effort. They feel that if they can attain their success and wealth then anyone can do that too. They perceive themselves as the norm rather than an exception. Due to their success they tend to feel that the barriers, limitations and exploitation are exaggerated.

It is true that where there is a will there there is a way. We have plenty of rags to riches stories to be inspired from. These people truly deserve recognition for their achievements. And yes barriers have fallen as more people do rise to the top. However, the fact is a lot of these people are either exceptional or lucky. For ordinary Joe Schmo even wills and ways, lead to dead ends and concrete ceilings.

Either way all is not lost. There is still hope. Despite how averse people may appear towards egalitarianism the spirit of equity still remains within most communities. Rags to riches people like Oprah are always giving back in many ways. More importantly so is the average person. Despite the recession - Americans donated generously to the Haiti funds. Americans still comprise the largest percentages of volunteers in groups like Peace Corps, Red Cross and other charities. Every day more and more people startup side charities which rather than monetary donations actually go to various places and countries and perform service to improve. And a lot of these people are middle class. People still believe in egalitarianism - the only problem is they believe in it only if they have the control - not a government. We have to find a way to channel this faith into concrete actions towards equity.

Of course there are major challenges in the way that we have not resolved for years
1) Over population
2) The trailer park syndrome: The syndrome where the economically actually prefer to be economically backward so that they do not need to exercise fiscal responsibility and good citizen ship. There have been several instances in India where slum dwellers have sold their houses received in government schemes and moved back to slums. African Americans have been known to harass and abuse African Americans who excel at school or compete with the white kids for being too white and tarnish their success as 'race traitors' (I do that for Bobby Jindal LOL )
3) Moral imperialism: The sweat shop situation is iffy. A lot of people feel that shutting down sweatshops and forcing Nike and co to pay more is the solution.  The problem with this which many Asian social workers have expressed is that sweat shop children now forced into sex trade and prostitution - if there are no sweatshops. Many live in a world where sweatshop is a lesser evil. Parents can be abusive and/or alcoholic. There are issues due to lack of education. There are a lot more issues to be fixed along with economic parity. It is a long road ahead. [/WHINE]

@G And Qwerty - do you plan to carry your ridiculous language back and forth here too?

Roadrunnerz Goldie

Joined: 09 August 2008
Posts: 1723

Posted: 16 July 2010 at 3:53am | IP Logged
Originally posted by PhoeniXof_Hades

Originally posted by crazy_sunny

Originally posted by Mister.K.

Originally posted by jettythegod

What? thoo! what kind of damn forum philosopher do you call yourself when you havent read that book!Angry Dead I'm up watching "whale whores" in south park.

i don't read books. i write them. the others read what i write.
Oh really Star which ones did you write ? Where can I get one Big smile

Combine all his posts together, and you will get more than one.
Are you compiling them ....Ermm
_Angie_ IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 21 February 2008
Posts: 10179

Posted: 16 July 2010 at 4:38am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Gauri_3

Originally posted by Mister.K.

Thanks Labib. Very nice of you to say that. I will be sure to include your name in the foreword of my new book titled "Proponents of K-ideology".

Sunny, I always post excerpts from my as-yet-unpublished books on these forums; a privileged few such as you guys are privy to that.

Jetty - if you participate in a serious discussion 10 times and chat 1 time, Sarina would overlook that. On the other hand if you chat 10 times and participate in a serious discussion 1 time (or less), you would be in her hit list. Just a big-brotherly advice.

Write a book on it!!!  Write a book on it!!!   Please, prettey please, Mister. K!!!!
Did you mean a book on big - brotherly advise, Gauri ? Going by what K has said above , he has already posted excerpts from that book , care to search them out or  ask POH if he has compiled them LOL
_Angie_ IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 21 February 2008
Posts: 10179

Posted: 16 July 2010 at 4:43am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Mister.K.

Originally posted by cuckoocutter

investment banking profession is the most underpaid in my opinion. very few people have brains and personality for the perpetual money-makin schemes they can palm off to unsuspecting folks (the mind's also gotta work overtime 24/ 7 to be able to scavenge like that), it reaches out and touches wallets of millions of people world-wide, returns a buck to so many people (if they start out with ten lol), yet when it come to earning money, all's they can do is take out a few mill a year. my heart goes outa them. really does. lol

I suppose you are talking about the buy side components of investment banks. I just had a flash back to the horrors of 2008.

If they take 10 and give back 1, that's still not a bad return. If they take 10 and then take another 10 and then bolt to cayman islands (or sty in US but with SEC sleeping on the job), leaving me with margin calls, I would have a lot of explaining to do, at home. "What was I thinking, why am I investing when I don't know the A, B, C of investing, yada yada yada".

GS and JPM, both firms should be nuked. I'll pray for the innocent to escape unscathed but I doubt anybody will, from those two firms.
Did you too burn your fingers by your investments there?  Did the yada yada yada ...lead to your contemplation on "yada yada hi dharmasya......" ?  Any regrets there.....or would you consider it as a blessing in disguise ..
_Angie_ IF-Sizzlerz

Joined: 21 February 2008
Posts: 10179

Posted: 16 July 2010 at 5:04am | IP Logged
Does that tell us something ? 
Perhaps  we should try spread the levels more horizontally instead of  vertical  !

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