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Mister.K. IF-Dazzler

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Posted: 21 June 2010 at 11:32am | IP Logged
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return_to_hades IF-Veteran Member
return_to_hades
return_to_hades

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 21485

Posted: 21 June 2010 at 12:00pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by souro



Do I think such arguments would've been successful in convincing a diverse audience (as in audience comprising people from various countries) that being born to a single mom in a small town in India is better? Most probably not. It worked because most people here are from the subcontinent and felt good seeing arguments defending their country/ region. The likes of the people most probably got biased and strayed from practicality. But even then, the judgement of the side defending the Indian mom has to be commended because they successfully gauged the audience and arguments that will pull them.

So, overall I'll say that they did do a very good job even when the odds were against them and they had very limited space in which to manouvre.



Here is where I will disagree. I actually thought the US lesbian side would be harder to debate. I'm basing this on the arguments I was preparing against Gauri, as I promised to do in case no one responded.

1) The economic opportunities in the United States is a model minority bubble. There is plenty of evidence of limited economic, education and growth opportunities in the cancer belt/bible belt/coal belt etc. Even beyond that anyone living in USA becomes aware that economic opportunities lie with the coasties and select Metropolis. Half the Indians in USA think I am making up the place and state I live in - its all a blur unless you mention Chicago.

2) There are also neutral studies on single parent vs gay upbringing related to gender socialization, peer identity etc.

3) There is also plenty of evidence on hate crime against children of gay parents as well as covert  discrimination, as well as mental health issues due to seclusion and isolation.

But you are right, rather than choose the grounded citation route the other side very brilliantly and cleverly chose to go for the mass appeal route that tugs at the heartstrings. Which is why they ended up winning for the sheer tact in knowing the pulse of the masses. It is my opinion that proper debate has no room for personal experience or emotions, but facts that lead to conclusions. But the the average masses feel more than think - hence the outcome.
souro Moderator
souro
souro

Joined: 27 January 2007
Posts: 13897

Posted: 21 June 2010 at 12:15pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by souro



Do I think such arguments would've been successful in convincing a diverse audience (as in audience comprising people from various countries) that being born to a single mom in a small town in India is better? Most probably not. It worked because most people here are from the subcontinent and felt good seeing arguments defending their country/ region. The likes of the people most probably got biased and strayed from practicality. But even then, the judgement of the side defending the Indian mom has to be commended because they successfully gauged the audience and arguments that will pull them.

So, overall I'll say that they did do a very good job even when the odds were against them and they had very limited space in which to manouvre.



Here is where I will disagree. I actually thought the US lesbian side would be harder to debate. I'm basing this on the arguments I was preparing against Gauri, as I promised to do in case no one responded.

1) The economic opportunities in the United States is a model minority bubble. There is plenty of evidence of limited economic, education and growth opportunities in the cancer belt/bible belt/coal belt etc. Even beyond that anyone living in USA becomes aware that economic opportunities lie with the coasties and select Metropolis. Half the Indians in USA think I am making up the place and state I live in - its all a blur unless you mention Chicago.

2) There are also neutral studies on single parent vs gay upbringing related to gender socialization, peer identity etc.

3) There is also plenty of evidence on hate crime against children of gay parents as well as covert  discrimination, as well as mental health issues due to seclusion and isolation.

But you are right, rather than choose the grounded citation route the other side very brilliantly and cleverly chose to go for the mass appeal route that tugs at the heartstrings. Which is why they ended up winning for the sheer tact in knowing the pulse of the masses. It is my opinion that proper debate has no room for personal experience or emotions, but facts that lead to conclusions. But the the average masses feel more than think - hence the outcome.

Maybe, I'm not an expert in this matter, so I won't comment. I felt the only problem a child of a lesbian couple will face (in a society which is somewhat more accepting) is bullying and taunts at school. Kids can be very cruel.

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Midnight_Shade

my_view Goldie
my_view
my_view

Joined: 18 December 2008
Posts: 1117

Posted: 21 June 2010 at 1:18pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Mister.K.

my_view, if I may, was that the only excerpt that bothered you or are you in general averse to the idea of debaters citing articles to shore up their arguments?



I don't see anything wrong with citing articles that have direct impact on arguments however I have a problem with stretching the inference too far and forcibly at that.
There are a few citations that seemed irrelevant to me and not worthy of critical acclaim it received but thats just my opinion.
I have posted few examples at the end below for those who have not read them in detail.


Originally posted by Mister.K.

I agree, the relevance of a citation could be questioned. May be during the debate but not after the results were announced. But for purely academic reasons, we could still debate on whether this particular link has any bearing to the subject on hand: http://www.indiatogether.org/tribal/articles/kermthers.htm

I think one argument against that citation could go something like "the plight of unwed mothers in that particular village is markedly different from all other known cases in India". But then, that dispute would require a citation of its own.



First of all I don't think it is appropriate to debate the closing statement.
Secondly, I am not questioning the results of the debate - can you even imagine the sensitivity if Karan was the winner and my posting of concerns regarding citations..!! phew...I would have to run for cover here..lol
I feel RTH did a great job in fact a brilliant job with her overall assessment of the debate and debaters but she also seemed highly impressed with citations and this is where I disagree with her.


few citations posted and their captions.

[7] http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20050502/kerala.html

"Whose Lineage Is It Anyway?

A government directive deals a body blow to the hopes of inter-caste couples in the state. It says their children can inherit only the father's caste even if the mothers belong to the SC/ST."

Irrelvalant

[9] http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009/cpi_2009_table

"The Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) table."

Now India being at number 84 of 180 is quiet a revelation to me as I expected it to be in the bottom 20%..
Also USA barely made it to top 20 which was eye opener to me since I thought it would be in top 10.

Anyhow keeping the large middle class segment of India in mind (which is where this debate is based on) how many (middle class) children are affected regularly in a negative way that it makes for a compelling reason to pick USA over India?


[10] http://www.who.int/countries/en/

How many of the middles class Indians can actually relate to India statistics on WHO website with data skewed due to large poor population?


Edited by my_view - 21 June 2010 at 1:20pm

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Midnight_Shade

cuckoocutter Senior Member

Joined: 08 December 2009
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Posted: 21 June 2010 at 1:21pm | IP Logged
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cuckoocutter Senior Member

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Posted: 21 June 2010 at 1:45pm | IP Logged
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Mister.K. IF-Dazzler

Joined: 28 February 2009
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Posted: 21 June 2010 at 1:55pm | IP Logged
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return_to_hades IF-Veteran Member
return_to_hades
return_to_hades

Joined: 18 January 2006
Posts: 21485

Posted: 21 June 2010 at 2:06pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by cuckoocutter

Originally posted by return_to_hades

It is my opinion that proper debate has no room for personal experience or emotions, but facts that lead to conclusions. But the the average masses feel more than think - hence the outcome.


hmmm i cant believe u just said this. have you studied up on the great presidential debates? dukakis lost it to bush sr coz he cldnt bring the emotion out to bernie shaw's question about how he wld react if his wife got raped n pregnant (question was getting at dukasis stance on abortion). bentsen knocked qayle out with his "you aint no jack kennedy" line. reagan made carter look like an imbecile with his "there u go again jimmy". ross perot drew attention (and laughter) with his "i am all ears". did u really say what u just said?

now pls dont say those werent debates. they were high stakes contests that decided course of history. theywere structured, but they were debates all right, point of which was to ultimately get your points across EFFECTIVELY without puttin ppl to sleep. lol

oh another thing- the medium counts as well. u gotta look cute on TV, u gotta try somethin else when u write. it's all part of persuasive communication, knowing the medium as well. :)


I ain't misunderestimatin you dubya. You sure a worthy winna twice over, worth every bit of yer texas salt.

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Beyond_the_Veil

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