Bachelor parties - Male and Female - Page 12

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

3) Finally even if it is proven beyond reasonable doubt such parties are the sole and leading cause of whatever terrible problem future generations face, by proposing we curb them now - we are proposing curbing of the free will of humans making a conscientious decision that is causing no real direct harm because it risks some potential future harm. It is like saying oxygen supports fire, eliminate air.

Just by the way Sarina, I absolutely adore this! I've heard and used such statements once or twice in national debates, but this easily ranks amongst the best I've known! 👍🏼

Originally posted by: Ice-Thinker

@return to hades: The glasses of ignorance is one thing, and the rope of value is another. Holding on to the rope of value is very important. "When in Rome do as the Romans do" is not always the best quote. Would you participate in throwing stones on a woman declared guilty by a sovereign countries legal system? .. just because that is the way the people of that country lead their life?

There are always those GOOD things that can be accepted into ones life from that other country ... and those BAD things which your own country taught you, you can clean it out... and vice versa. The education of GOOD vs. BAD therefore become a very big neccessity for humans. Otherwise, again, its an anarchy. WONDER IF YOU TOOK THE TIME TO READ THE POST I POSTED PREVIOUSLY TO THIS, GIVING SOME INPUT OVER YOUR THOUGHTS ... 😊

I am sorry about interrupting the wonderful conversation, I just read this and thought about adding my two-piece. Not just because it is directed to Sarina, but because I myself was in conflict with what you've just stated above.

First things first. What is the "rope of value" to you? And does it equate to the values of your neighbor? To that of the inhabitants of the neighboring country to yours? To that of those living on the other side of the globe? Just because your family and religion have set up a system of culture and values, doesn't give them the status of being "right", at least in every which way. I'd agree with Sarina, family values are VERY important, they shape your identity after all, perhaps in many cases, your personality too, but your integrity? I highly doubt it. I can live up to what my religion asks me, but that does not mean I have to view the world and worldly happenings in each and every way stated by my holy book or prophet.

Secondly, you're contradicting yourself according to me. That woman must not be thrown stones at when we visit the country, yet everyone must conform to one set of principles made up by someone? Fair enough deal I must say. Someone who chooses to have a bachelor party as he wishes to does not do it just because the "rest" have it that way, similarly to have someone like me would choose a get-together not because my friends would do it that way too. I do believe it comes down to personal choice. You cannot expect to set up rules in free democratic countries about how bachelor parties must, or must not be done, lest it includes strippers, alcohol or whatever that follows.

Thirdly, to educate people on Good v/s Bad, I think we must ourselves be sure of the "good" and then of the "bad". The concept that all these habits come from the West is outdated, and highly ridiculous if you ask me. I've always been labeled, back home in India, as someone who's been born and brought up in "foreign". Yet, of the numerous times I visited India, all distant relatives who came to visit said they wished they had preserved their culture as we do over here. It's a WRONG assumption that when you're out of India, you let go of the "so-called" values and traditions that are supposedly set in the Indian society. I am 18, and I am still not allowed to step out of the house alone after 8 unless special reasons, and I am aware of tens of cases, some being my own cousins, who live in India and go out partying late, without restriction. It's cool to label people when you're not part of the lot. But reality, in often many cases, is something else.


Again, so that you do not get me wrong. I am not a follower of alcoholic drinks nor of strippers, nor do I ever felt the need to promote them, no matter in what society or culture. But that does not stop me from saying that I do not mind people making their own choices, whether that involves stripping and consuming alcohol. Also, as Sarina very well put it, it's always been really easy to judge people on their habits. Mind you, habits and actions are NOT the same. I think she's clearly explained how people may seem all to religious and abiding to rules and be rotten people, whilst others may be a bit carefree and having small vices but prove to be excellent human beings. Labeling someone as "bad", because he or she chooses his/her way of partying, is not something I'd do at least.

@sneha:

1. Your "two-pieces" are welcome.

2. The rope of value does equate with the values universally. One such value would be not to murder. Another would be not to rape. Yet another value would be to be respectful to human kind and oneself. Alcoholism, drugs, gambling, stripping/prostitution are universally accepted vices. The only arguments which come in favor of such things are from those who would like to believe in anarchic freedom. The hippies in the 70s tried it ... and have not been considered as the best role models for a civilised social structure.

I did not bring up religion. It was brought up by other respected members and their thinking. Being good is not only religious, but also being basic. To help a blind man cross the road is something that is still believed to be a good deed (by most ... ofcourse there are those who would say that they cannot waste their time  ... or its the blind man's problem that he is blind).

3. You are reading my post in a way what would make it look conveniently contradictory perhaps? ... Did that ever occur to you?

I never said that we all should decide what is good or bad. I try to emphasize that we RECOGNISE what is good or bad. Because GOOD and BAD have always been present ... the only thing we need to do is to recognise it. IF an entire country have a crumbling social structure, then it doesnt mean that we should follow it. However, we should know what is the foundation of a civilised society ... and recognise when that foundation (or corner stones) are missing ... whether in an individual or a group or a government. MY WHOLE AGENDA IS ABOUT ANALYSING THIS PROBLEM, DISECTING IT, LOOK DEEPER ... While doing this I do have my own position and argument.

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

I love how you immediately associate the drinking, gambling et al to the west. Loved the subtle judgment calls even better.

I'm not sure where you are coming from, but I was born and raised in India - albeit in a metropolis, but all these issues you mention are very prevalent even in India, rural India too. The only problem is the issues are never really discussed or gain prominence. But all my adult life I have lived in the United States, the midwest to be more precise. Being Wisconsin there is a huge drinking culture here, but my culture shock upon moving was to discover the prominence of good old fashioned midwestern family values, the old school home town hospitality as well as cultural pride displayed by the ethnic Germans, Swiss, Norwegians that dot the midwest. Some values that I had been taught not to expect in the United States. 

Of course I agree, society and culture in the subcontinent is a lot more conservative and many of these are frowned upon if not strictly forbidden. For many families it is disreputable to be even associated with such things. I do take pride in my homeland culture and heritage, and genuinely admire the people who have the will power and mental strength to lead restrained lives.

However, my experiences have taught me that you cannot judge people, their families, their culture their values by a few vices they have or the few qualities they portray. I have seen some really despicable human beings behind the front of holiert than thoust family traditions, and I have seen some genuinely wonderful human beings who have had their share of indiscretions. I agree 101%. I wasn't judging anyone at all. I'm fully aware that many people leading strictly religious lives actually understand nothing about their faith and are pathetic from within. But that's hardly important here and is a different topic altogether!

As for your claim that I am changing the equation when it comes to family and religion, what exactly do you mean and please explain with an example of what I said or did. 😆 I didn't claim anything...I'll explain what I meant - I said that I agree with what you said in your previous post, i.e the vices in question are acceptable and fun just as long as you don't consider family values and religion. And when you do, the equation changes!

So basically to someone who cares less for the 2 aspects of life...things are totally different and I have no trouble understanding/accepting that. But that, of course, doesn't mean that all individuals without a strong/rich family history and un-religious are bad! They can still be wonderful human beings with a heart of gold! But still...don't you think the scenario is a bit different for children coming from conservative, traditional families? All human beings are not equal - some carry more responsibility than others!

Coming to family and religion, it means a lot to me as its a part of my intrinsic identity. Outside of that, I cannot view the world through the glasses of my family or my religion. To me all that matters is reason, that whatever people do be done in good sense and good reason. I'm a moral relativist, I simply cannot subscribe to a one size fits all moral theory.