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RainbowWarrior

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Posted: 05 April 2010 at 6:13am | IP Logged
Originally posted by immunoblot

This thing about presentation... While they were the colonialists, the British carried the "white man's burden" and tried to civilize us, even as they underhandedly robbed our nation.


I agree with you.

Civilising a people is just a few steps away from imposing your own beliefs, ethnic cleansing and genocide. Who's to decide which civilization is the best example to follow?

I think our cultural diversity is the best thing we have. Can you imagine a world 100/200 years later, where everyone wears jeans and sings in a Hinglish accent only (or similar)? I love Scottish and Irish accents and a viking cartoon just wouldn't be the same without it and nor would Sean Connery.

The more a majority imposes their set of rules on the world, the more we lose out on cultures, languages, art and so many other things. There are so many places in the world where the people are living in peace, in harmony with nature that don't have a recognised system of education and yet they are far happier and together than those people who sell us their ideals.

Originally posted by axeion


Violence is necessary always, it's a simple theory of "Survival of the Fittest"'a reason we - the HomoSapiens exist today!!! We had to turn violent towards the wild before they could kill us, and survive! When violence is used in today's world, it is still based on the same principle. Two countries resort to violence to prove their superiority over the other. When US nuked Japan in WWII, it was just to establish their superiority over the other nations and survive the war!


The wild was never killing off the humans when humans decided to attack. There was always a good relationship of co-existence. Yes, life spans were shorter, the likely hood of being eaten alive greater or being wiped out by a sudden communicable disease too but the situation was never as it is today.

After wiping out so many plant and animal species, humans still don't have enough room; after all the advances in medicine, the poor still die from the old diseases and the rich die from other stress based new illnesses.

Humans don't want to just survive, they want to conquer, control and pretty much be the owners of the universe... when most can't even bend over to touch their toes...

Survival is just an excuse for violence.

Pearl Harbour is NOT equal to the nuclear bombing of two Japnaese cities.
Home-made rocket strikes on Israel is NOT equal to cluster bomb air strikes on UN shelters
Ground invasion of Kuwait by Iraq is NOT equal to US bombing Iragi civilians with depleted uranium bombs.

In nature, many species do resort to violence for survival but it's not the ONLY thing that they do. They also adapt and evolve. What have humans learn't from years of violence, other than better ways to make war?

Originally posted by axeion


LoL, that would only help you stop the physical war, how will u put an end to the electronic/information warfare and all other kinds of wars? How will u stop the Iranian anti-social elements from manipulating the feeds from US Drones' flying over Iran? How will stop the members of HAI from hacking the Australian supermarket networks just bcoz some Indian students were attacked by a bunch of Australian goons???


One war at a time Smile

@"How will u stop the Iranian anti-social elements from manipulating the feeds from US Drones' flying over Iran"
Iranians should fix their own country. If the US has to do anything for them, that's just counter productive. Years and years of providing relief aid to African countries had gotten them no where. The 'grameen' bank system that is now being employed in some countries is actually getting results. Helping people help themselves is the key, not spoon feeding or playing the security guard.

@"How will stop the members of HAI from hacking the Australian supermarket networks just bcoz some Indian students were attacked by a bunch of Australian goons???"
Not familiar with HAI, sorry; sounds like they done something real stupid though. May be they reckon the Australian government will run out of coffee and take notice? lol

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axeion

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Posted: 05 April 2010 at 7:53am | IP Logged
I am highly disappointed with the casualties from the Easter Earthquake Angry

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Posted: 05 April 2010 at 7:54am | IP Logged
Originally posted by nitz17

Originally posted by axeion

Originally posted by RainbowWarrior

I'm not sure I should read this book, I haven't even started yet and I'm so worked up.... Confused
RW ji, I am not reading it. I started with great spirit but I lost interest after the first 20 pages, the only saving grace is those bunch of pictures in it Wink Don't bother about reading it if u r busy with work, I can give u company for that Wink


Looks like I am not the only one here.... Confused.... I need to start from today at least


YES, please! I'm also starting from tonight... Star

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Posted: 05 April 2010 at 8:11am | IP Logged
Originally posted by RainbowWarrior

Originally posted by immunoblot

This thing about presentation... While they were the colonialists, the British carried the "white man's burden" and tried to civilize us, even as they underhandedly robbed our nation.


I agree with you.

Civilising a people is just a few steps away from imposing your own beliefs, ethnic cleansing and genocide. Who's to decide which civilization is the best example to follow?

I think our cultural diversity is the best thing we have. Can you imagine a world 100/200 years later, where everyone wears jeans and sings in a Hinglish accent only (or similar)? I love Scottish and Irish accents and a viking cartoon just wouldn't be the same without it and nor would Sean Connery.

The more a majority imposes their set of rules on the world, the more we lose out on cultures, languages, art and so many other things. There are so many places in the world where the people are living in peace, in harmony with nature that don't have a recognised system of education and yet they are far happier and together than those people who sell us their ideals.

Well, when they tried to "civilize", the world and India were not enlightened enough to know that the Indian civilization flourished while Europe drank from the horn... and that what was being sold to India and to the rest of the world by the imperialists was a fallacy...
Now don't you think that this wouldn't this have happened if India was more awake, and aware??
Had Indians been educated, could the imperialists have established the hold that they did? Had we not been a Nation steeped in prejudice (for all those diversely different from us), and darkness (of superstition and ritual dogma), don't you think, we'd have been better prepared against the might of the invaders??

RW ji, I think education and world unity are good things. It has its merits that cultures inter-mingle and people begin to respect others (by imitating them; and surely Hinglish can barely dominate, it sounds horrible!)... and nobody can impose anything on anyone these days... Unless the Scots and the Irish wish to lose themselves, they will preserve their accents. But change is necessary, and it isn't always brought about by oppression. The British are no longer speaking in the manner of Shakespearean tomes; or the way of Victorian literature...

@red: those are the people considered "backward". And, to be honest, I'd not want to be them. I like this life, and my individual identity...



Edited by immunoblot - 05 April 2010 at 8:23am

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Posted: 05 April 2010 at 8:19am | IP Logged
Originally posted by axeion

...  @whole debate abt the 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries; US is fastly heading towards being a Socialist country, so don't worry, the 2nd world would resurface soon!

There is a difference between Socialist and Communist. Germany and Denmark are socialist nations as well, but still a part of the first world.
The second world was communist (as different from socialist), so the second world of the future will be China. (The US isn't all that important anymore.)
In any case, this is not related to the book.

Smita ji, will you please find another question more relevant to the book now... Big smile


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Posted: 05 April 2010 at 9:20am | IP Logged
Originally posted by immunoblot

Originally posted by RainbowWarrior

Originally posted by Veritas

But their controllers and the people who planned this whole event did know better .

I think it is is pride..This belief ..that their way is the right way..their belief system is the best and their ideas have the most merit ..may be a sense of victim hood and a hope of bringing back past glory



@bold,
Isn't that more applicable to the so-called free democratic western first-world countries?

Take for example the couple caught having sex on a beach in Dubai. They were fined a paltry sum and sent home free (the govt. here paid). But when the story of their arrest had come out, the British media had gone bonkers over it, saying the jail term of 6 months was too harsh etc etc. Well the public decency laws are strict here but the couple on the beach were aware of it right? (btw, they were also drunk and threatened a police officer when he asked them to stop).
Even though, sex in public is not okay pretty much everywhere in the world, the media portrayed the law here as a medieval subjugating system promoting anarchy, discord and what not.

I might sound racist, but many white folk who come here, except to run naked on the beaches just because the sun is out and there is a beach and according to them this is perfectly normal behaviour.

In my office, I've caught several conversations referring to 'those covered up women' where the speakers are shocked to learn that women who veil themselves in public, not only follow fashion, get higher education degrees but are "like, oh my god! she was actually smart and she could speak in English too".

These modern ladies feel uncomfortable in the presence of veiled women. I get that, no problem. BUT, they find it weird that veiled women feel uncomfortable to see them parade in two-piece bathing suits. It's double standards. I don't get this. The rules should be the same right?

Why exactly is it that their belief system is better than the rest of us? Democracy the best way to run a country? Women in conservative/traditional clothes are oppressed? Eating with our hands uncivilised?

"Terrorists" are targeted for trying to impose their own belief on the population of a particular area/country. Enlightened first-world countries have been imposing their ideologies on the entire world for centuries, but no one can call them a terrorist? What a shame.

(Apologies for going so... uhh.. writing so much).

I tend to agree with what you say, RW ji... but I cannot bring myself to agree with the part in blue. So long as the  belief system isn't founded on tyranny or hate, we wouldn't call it terrorism. Would we??

The Second World War was waged solely for political gains. And yet, the victors proclaimed their victory over the Fascists and Nazis... You see, it is all a matter of portrayal. Come to think of it, had the war not weakened the British empire, Bapu Gandhi would've carried on with his non-violent protests until the day he died, and imperialism and its exploitative hold over the world would not have ceased anywhere near the date it did. And yet we all hail Gandhi and hate Hitler (even though, the latter does deserve a small iota of praise for hurting the Empire and being slightly responsible for making the world go colony-free, as unintentioned as it may be...)
 

I think, if the "terrorists" adopt an approach where they can present their cause without causing grief to the innocent, they wouldn't be called "terrorists"... and in this regard one must separate a terrorist from a fundamentalist (Eastern, or Western)...



I agree with Blot ji here..and RWJI when you talk about  how western countries took advantage of us...well every country is guilty of that..Look at what India does with its neigbours .
We are  fighting over water
When it comes to countries or geopolitics..moral values ...righteousness ..justice don't count.
The bottom line is everyone is looking out for their own
Do you think common people in England during colonial era  cared about what was happening to peole in India...about famines,floods ,epidemics..no.
As long as their standard of living was maintained they didn't care ,and this is true for everyone in the world.
We tend to identify ourselves by borders ,religions,languages and look out for our own.

what ever the faults of Western civilization I agree with their belief in individual freedom and propagation of  democracy.

I am grateful to the british for abolishing Sati in the first place.. for working against the caste system and for bringing in modern education to our country.
All of our founding fathers had been given access to western education..they had been exposed to ideas that expanded their mind and world view.

Hence independent India gave all its citizens the right to vote..we didn't have to fight for women's suffrage because the battle had been fought for us  somewhere else,and like wise  we have to fight for people who can't fight for themselves.
Just because something has been going on for centuries does not mean it is right...
I  quote Donald Symons here
"If only one person in the world held down a terrified, struggling, screaming little girl, cut off her genitals with a septic blade, and sewed her back up, leaving only a tiny hole for urine and menstrual flow, the only question would be how severely that person should be punished, and whether the death penalty would be a sufficiently severe sanction. But when millions of people do this, instead of the enormity being magnified millions-fold, suddenly it becomes 'culture', and thereby magically becomes less, rather than more, horrible, and is even defended by some Western 'moral thinkers', including feminists."

somethings are just not right  and we shouldn't close our eyes because these masquerade as religion or culture.
When you talked about the couple..granted they were wrong,but if some loony expat thinks it was against his rights and decides to blow up the tallest building in Dubai...how right would that be.
you say it is made out to be big deal in Britain,but I will point you to another incident..France passed a law banning religious clothing in its state schools..it became a big issue and was debated everywhere in the world even in India.
They didn't target any community in particular...but that is how it was spread around.
Why wasn't it accepted as the law of the land and the right of a govt in deciding what happened in  schools..they funded.


And I truly believe that violence is necessary,sometimes you cannot reason with people.
I think it is justified and for greater good if violence against few like Hitler,Pol pot,Idi amin ,Mugabe,Mussolini ..can save millions.


I tried to answer all the posts at once..pardon me.. If I rambled.

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Posted: 05 April 2010 at 9:25am | IP Logged
Originally posted by immunoblot

Originally posted by axeion

...  @whole debate abt the 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries; US is fastly heading towards being a Socialist country, so don't worry, the 2nd world would resurface soon!

There is a difference between Socialist and Communist. Germany and Denmark are socialist nations as well, but still a part of the first world.
The second world was communist (as different from socialist), so the second world of the future will be China. (The US isn't all that important anymore.)
In any case, this is not related to the book.

Smita ji, will you please find another question more relevant to the book now... Big smile

 i

I had to answer it myself before moving on Smile

I will come up with another question and post it soonWink

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Posted: 05 April 2010 at 9:48am | IP Logged
I am lifting a question directly from a reading guide
Here it goes
Much of the book is a meditation on what it means to be a foreigner assimilating with another culture. Discuss your own experiences with foreign cultures'things that you have learned, mistakes you have made, misunderstandings you have endured.
Tongue

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