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Karma and God (Page 10)

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xobile

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xobile

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Posted: 06 June 2010 at 4:53pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by qwertyesque

Originally posted by xobile

Originally posted by qwertyesque

Originally posted by Summer3

Originally posted by Believe

Originally posted by karandel_2008

I saw some interest in MOTW for karma discussion thus I am bumping this thread for discussion.

There are many versions of karma: Your versions of Karma and then Karma A, Karma B, etc.

So you people believe in which theory?
You do it and it is finished....thats why I believe..the action comes out of your present awareness... it is not karma,.....if it comes out of the past it is binding, it is karma...Smile
It is said that we are born to clear outstanding karma (good and bad karma); problem is that fresh karma is created each and every day. Another problem is that the plus points and and minus points cannot be used to cancell each other out.
But following spiritual life karma can be burnt and cancelled.
I believe the seed of karma is desire. Desire for something keeps us moving and living and wanting. Desire first arises as a thought very often.
this is a belief only amongst hindius alone.. I am not sure how other religion reconcile across the death barrier.. I am not sure if they even believe in coming back leave alone coming back as a monkey!!????


Most major religions are built upon the premise that there is life beyond this life. In the beliefs of some religions, once you die in this world you will live on for eternity in heaven or hell.
See there is a difference most religion says you do good you go to heaven and if you do bad you go to hell.. this is really elementary.. Karma as defined in the hindu religion is more than that,.. it is a cycle of rebirths till one has reformed oneself... this also factors in reincarnation for incomplete karmas... etc. so this word shouldnt be loosely used in its meaning.. I would say define Karma before we start making interpretations about it....


Agreed.

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return_to_hades

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Posted: 06 June 2010 at 10:21pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Mister.K.

Just to start you off:

[K] Is karma just another name for cause and effect?
[RTH] Yes to me Karma is about cause and effect. The universe is built on certain principles akin to If X then Y, if A then B. The entire system is a lot more complex with many variables, permutations and combinations. Our choices between X and A, determine if Y or B occurs.

When you say "if X then Y", are you just certain about it's chances or are you convinced that "if X then Y is guaranteed"?

If it is the latter, who or what according to you is guaranteeing that? if it the former, then how is it different than a non-deterministic scenario?





If X then Y is guaranteed. It is determined by laws existing within the cosmos. Just like if you heat water at the right temperature long enough it boils. There are however many variables that affect the result in karma, the situation, the action, the intent of the action etc etc and I don't think we humans have understood all the various permutations of variables and the result.

return_to_hades

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Posted: 06 June 2010 at 10:23pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Mister.K.

@Sarina: If P(X) = 1 then is P(Y) guaranteed to be 1?

If I drop a glass on a concrete floor will it always break?

How much is chance and how much is certain?


If you drop a certain type of glass from a certain height it will break. Some glasses are made not to break. Some glasses will only crack. Too low of a height or force, it may only crack.

If you have the right glass and height it will certainly break. The problem with predicting karma is we often are not sure what glass we have cast and from how high.

return_to_hades

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Posted: 06 June 2010 at 10:34pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by debayon

Originally posted by return_to_hades

@Debayon

Can you answer these questions at your leisure

Do you believe in a moral sense of right, wrong, good and evil?No. Morality depends on a generalized perception of a group of people(let me know if you didn;t get what I am saying)
Do you try to be good or behave in a certain way? If so why? What keeps you from being inherently evil, cruel and unusual? Yes, I try to be polite to people or at least strangers because that's what my parents have taught me to do.

So would you agree that even without God or religion there is a core human consciousness and moral fiber? That you believe in an ethical sense that is not empirically proven but societally accepted or passed on through generations? If there is no proof or right, wrong and its consequences - why does an atheist accept and follow such humanitarian codes? Why don't atheists selfishly fulfill their desires as long as they can get away with it legally, after all we have no empirical proof that it is wrong or that there will be consequences?

Do you believe in cause & effect? Why is it impossible that an action you commit now can have consequences in the future? Yes, I do believe in cause and effect but upto a certain limit. Let me tell it to you Matrix-style: I drank too much wine, now I must take a pissLOL Now that's understandable. But the effect should be recent. Now I don't believe that if you curse at someone for some reason, you'll go to hell(if there is one) or something like that. I believe in immediate cause and effect or a scientific cause and effect, such as the long term effect of smoking is lung cancer, not a prolonged cause and effect.

But not all cause effects in nature or science are immediate. It took years for coal to form in the earths layers. It takes a lot of pressure and special conditions to turn coal to diamond.

Lets move to more obvious cause and effect for humans. We often make decisions that may not have immediate effect but shape our lives in the long run. Choosing a school, choosing a career, making investments etc. We make choices now, but their effects can be long and varied.

Now I am not one to say that if you do X you get hell and if you do Y you get heaven. Its too simplified and you cannot make claims with such certainty. But at the same time I am not aware of all variables and their results. What is wrong in me believing that every action that I do today, plays a role in shaping events of the future for me. Sometimes in social, psychological and metaphysical ways that I do not understand.
 

Mister.K.

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Posted: 06 June 2010 at 11:13pm | IP Logged
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Mister.K.

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Posted: 06 June 2010 at 11:22pm | IP Logged
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return_to_hades

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Posted: 06 June 2010 at 11:53pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Mister.K.

Originally posted by return_to_hades


If X then Y is guaranteed. It is determined by laws existing within the cosmos.


Please state those laws.

You will hate my answer I know. I do not know those laws. I believe that there are laws. I believe that every cause has an effect, we just don't know it all.

Originally posted by return_to_hades


 I don't think we humans have understood all the various permutations of variables and the result.


There could be a billion things out there we didn't yet understand. But we can't move forward making any of them a law (if-X-then-Y-is-guaranteed type of law) unless you show me the pudding baked with the proof.

Even before gravity was proven it existed. Just because I have not proven a law yet does not mean it does not exist. I believe that universal complex laws of cause and effect exist. I could be wrong. But I believe that it is the only explanation for fruit of our actions. But I will admit that at this is all what I believe rather than what I know.

Originally posted by return_to_hades


Just like if you heat water at the right temperature long enough it boils.


How much water? A ocean? Establishing the boiling point of, say, 100 ml. of water is as trivial as establishing that my hand got bitten off (effect) when I was feeding a lion (cause) because of karma (action).

I missed the quantity of water. I always missed one variable while defining Celsius in school too. LOL . It is just a simplistic explanation. Feeding a lion does not always result in getting your hand bitten off. Either you make a mistake or the lion is vicious. You also had a choice of feeding that lion or not. So the effect was a result of your action and choices.



Edited by return_to_hades - 06 June 2010 at 11:54pm

return_to_hades

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Posted: 07 June 2010 at 12:02am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Mister.K.

Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by Mister.K.

@Sarina: If P(X) = 1 then is P(Y) guaranteed to be 1?

If I drop a glass on a concrete floor will it always break?

How much is chance and how much is certain?


If you drop a certain type of glass from a certain height it will break. Some glasses are made not to break. Some glasses will only crack. Too low of a height or force, it may only crack.

If you have the right glass and height it will certainly break. The problem with predicting karma is we often are not sure what glass we have cast and from how high.


So, you are saying karma works only under unique circumstances?

Every circumstance is unique. The choices I face in life are different from my life choices. A decision that is good in your life maybe bad in your life. I am faced with a unique set of variables and unique choices, and my karma is what decisions I make.

How is that guaranteeing anything then?

Nothing is guaranteed. Those who say something is guaranteed, that something will lead to heaven and something will lead to hell, something is always good, something is always evil, something is sin something is not. Those who try to guarantee life and fate are probably furthest away any answers because they believe they know it. I believe in what I think are explanations, and they seem to be geared towards the truth. Ten years down the road, i may have more experiences and information that explain otherwise. My concept of karma is evolving too I guess.

Does it even work in our frame of reference, let alone in the entire universe, which you believe it does?

If I take Newton's laws of motion, they always work in our frame of reference. That is the solidity of those laws.

What laws govern the karma theory that work in our frame of reference with the same solidity that we come to expect from science?

As I stated in my previous post. Maybe this is not an answer, but I cannot cite all laws. There are millions of probabilities, permutations and combinations in the universe. Each that poses multitudes of choices. Each permutation and combination has its own effect. I'd call them natural laws, laws of the cosmos, whatever. I don't know them. But I do believe something keeps balance in the force.


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