Originally posted by immunoblot
Originally posted by pinkisluv91
Originally posted by immunoblot
My first question for discussion is about political correctness. The book begins with a monologue by Martin, who explains his reasons for committing suicide; and likens it to going away to Sydney. He says: "Suicide was my Sydney. And I say that with no offence to the good people of Sydney intended."
A. Do you think, people of Sydney will be offended by such a statement. I think not! (Had it been, "Suicide was my new Delhi", I would not have sufficiently enraged.)
B. Does this seem like a routine approach that you'd follow... Say something, and then suggest that no offence was intended? Is this a universal trait, or is this something typically British (which is what the book stereotypes!)
C. Would a desi protagonist do the same (care about political correctness)?
A. hmm maybe it could be offensive since suicide isn't a good thing and him comparing it to Sydney makes the city seem like a bad place. But the no offense part tells the people to take no offense. :))
B. I do that at times, but just so I don't make people mad and to let them know it's my personal opinion.
C. I think even a desi would do that:) Why not?
Well, suicide isn't a good thing; but in the place this sentence comes, he is saying that committing suicide is just like moving to another place. Sydney was just an example of the other place that he could move to; and honestly, if I were to write that passage, as a desi, I'd not bother about causing offense to anybody in Sydney.
Besides, I am certain that most desis are not politically correct... it is just our character to bristle at any percieved slights; but as a social system, we are totally non-PC...
For instance, there was an Indian postdoc in the neighbouring lab... they also had an African grad student in their lab; and while talking to me, this postdoc would often call this grad student "kaali"... and I know that many desis wouldn't think twice before doing something like this... that is the hallmark of our non-PC character...Pretty good amount of controversial conversation was going on here.
@All...Does being politically correct or not, depends upon the nationality or similar stuff? Isn't it a trait of the individual person?
Originally posted by axeion
General desi population is racist and has so many hypocrites π‘
I have come across many racists on this forum too...They are very good ppl as such, but just a bit racist though they don't mean any harm.
Coming back being PC, I don't know. U see I am not that good at analysing ppl. All I know is I have come across many weirdos
Originally posted by nitz17
Desi's are the most offensive when it comes to racism and that doesn't just end in international level; but national, state and regional level too. Our only saving grace is that we speak languages/dialect that not understood by others. I had a Indian classmate in grad school, she thought Americans are culture less coz according to her culture was being draped in clothes, not calling professors by their names and not having live-in and she was very offensive about it. I failed to make her understand that it is part of their culture... π. And yes, all desis in my school used to call African-Americans 'babban log'.
Will get back later after reading a few pages
Ciao
@Nitz, desi's aren't the most offensive ppl. It's just that we don't come across enough non-desis to realise how offensive they can be! I am sure every other nation's desis have some names for us non-desis of that nation.
I have seen many ppl in the US being nasty abt others here...So it's not just limited to the desi population.
Originally posted by Veritas
Ok ..I don't get this.
Even after traveling all this way..people still stick to these constraints and stupid notions.
And I agree Indians are the most racist not to mention castewadi too .
Until the time I was in India..I was against reservation and thought the whole idea of caste was overblown.
But now I am for reservations 100 %.
I saw casteism the first time after I came to the US.Can you believe that.
For people who have grown up in Delhi ,Bombay or other metro cities or for that matter kids of displaced parents it is not such a big deal.
But there are people who come from one state /region/language and have not had the opportunity to live and understand ,adapt or interact with other cultures.They stick to these notions of superiority and how their beliefs are better than others.
@ I call that "Congenital Superiority Illusion" - It is a mental disorder that makes the patient believe s/he is above everybody else. The common diagnosis for this syndrome is [URL=http://www.myspaceantics.com][/URL]
Originally posted by -Aladin-
**Keep in mind that I have not yet read a single page of the book** (tries to look ashamed and fails miserably) π
A. The idea is not offending, but it may to be to the sensitive people in Sydney. If someone says going to heaven is like going to Sydney, it would please the people of Sydney, but if the idea is moving to hell is like going to Sydney, then it can be offending. I expect it would differ from person to person, however, I would not be offended by such statements, because there are always good people and bad people in any country. Another fact is that criticism usually just bounces off of me. π
I still don't understand the context in which Sydney is used here. My super crazy brain just tells me that the author was trying to compare Sydney to heaven, bcoz thats where the characters of the book are trying to reach after they "tyaag-ofy" their hell-ish lives. But why the PC statement of "No offense"???
B. If I want to offend people, then I would generally phrase it 'if it offends someone, then so be it'. ππ I think I am politically correct, but only to a certain degree. Most desis are not politically correct though. We say the meanest things, without realizing what we are actually saying and when people say the same things about us, we tend to take a lot of offense. I'll use the example of black people. While we use discriminatory terms for them, it's all good, but when someone generalizes us in the same way, we don't take it kindly. However, it would be wrong on my part to only blame the desis. I believe it is quite a universal trait. I have come across some white folks (again a discrimatory term) who are the same way. The most tolerant people I have found is the "black" community, believe it or not. π³ππ
I agree here with you, I have come across wonderful Afro-American people too, and most of the time they have proved to be better than the Caucasian population too.
C. I don't think a desi protagonist (in general) would care.
(If I have offended someone, then it was not my intention.) π³π³π **pun intended**
Originally posted by immunoblot
Yeah... the prejudice does run deep in our collective mentalities... That is the problem... And so often, we don't even try to mask it.
And then we are also complain about political correctness (this is a universal trait; everybody complains about PC-ness, Martin does too: He says that in Sydney there will be no left-wing councils banning 'Baa-Baa Black Sheep'), we desis have mostly benefitted from the PC-West... and have made no efforts to correct our behaviour either at home, or abroad... instead by frowning upon it, we have found some sort of moral justification...
Sad part: Coming back to the book, the first page outlines Martin to have a conflict-ridden personality... So, disdainful of PC-ness; and yet so PC...
Would we desis be better at trying to emulate this attitude? At least by saying things that sound correct, can we somehow lessen the guilt of thinking/doing what is wrong?
@Mo! Saying things that sound correct we just just increase the guilt of thinking/doing what is wrong. Afterall, our brain does know what is correct and what not, there is no tricking ur brain!!!
I don't say the heart, bcoz heart doesn't exist. It's just a blood-pumping organπ‘
Originally posted by -Aladin-I think deep down we all know where we are hurting someone's sentiments. It's a simple matter of putting ourselves in other people's shoes (not literally). If you won't like something that is said about you, then you shouldn't say the same about others. Most people though, make such statements in their full senses and with the purpose of spiting the other party. It's just how it is. It's a bit sad. Then people wonder why is their so little tolerance? Rather ironic, isn't it.
This is exactly why, I don't believe in extreme views (especially the negative). All humans are created by God. Yet, to date we make fun of people who may not resemble us. As a child, my mom would reprimand us for making fun of other people's facial features even. She says, God created that person a certain way. How could you even make fun of them. Yet, people don't think twice before painting other people in a negative way. Many of my friends are the same, but I mostly ignore them. If I reprimand them, then apparently, I am taking away their rights to 'freedom of speech'. It's a double edged sword, isn't it.
@Aladin, πππ
Originally posted by Veritas
I believe Being a public personality has forced Martin to be PC.
He does it inadvertently...because he got trained over years.
He knows everything he says or does is news for the tabloids and can be misconstrued /misquoted and milked by news hounds
About the Sydney comment..It says something about the political climate prevalent in Britain..They do try very hard not to offend.
Originally posted by Veritas
Originally posted by immunoblot
Originally posted by Veritas
About the Sydney comment..It says something about the political climate prevalent in Britain..They do try very hard not to offend.
I agree with what you say about Martin...
But this thing about the British trying hard to not offend, and openly confront... is this a good sign? Should desis also try to emulate that?? Will we become better people, or will it lessen our stature in society if we stop excluding/demeaning people?? I don't know Blot ji.,I guess its contextual.
But then who gets to decide what is right or wrong.
The society (we the people) get to decide whats right or wrong! But are we ourselves qualified enough to decide it???
For example take the Burqa debate.
I thought people should be free to decide what they want to wear.
But people go overboard too ...I cite the recent case in high court ..where a woman did not want to take off her burqa for voter registration card photo.
Which is such a ridiculous argument.How would the election officials identify a person if they are veiled....And the judge said as much and said ..she had the choice to not vote or take off her veil.
Ultimately the muslim law board had to intervene and they said"going for haj is a religious requirement...for that you need a passport...which requires a photograph.
So the woman shouldn't have an issue with her photograph on the voter registration card.
I think there was something very frivolous about this whole argument.
Originally posted by Veritas
Originally posted by immunoblot
Everybody does this... I read a social commentary, according to which, this is what makes us stronger. When we exclude people on whatever bases, we assume a higher position; and strengthen the social order... π³
The law of "Selection by elimination" gives birth to the law of "Elevation by elimination"
I don't know about that,don't we elevate religion above everything else .
again it differs from person to person.
I think somehow prejudice is ingrained within us.We are trained from childhood..and we learn by noticing things around us...we just don't know better.It is like a reflex action.
So it has to be unlearned like everything else.
Black neighborhoods are supposedly "unsafe" in the US.
Does that mean I look with suspicion at all African Americans..no.
But I wouldn't live in those neighborhoods eitherIn their attempt to satisfy their religious duties, we humans forget our original religion - "Humanity"
Originally posted by -Aladin-Exactly Smita ji. See the thing about prejudices is that sometimes they are not far from reality. All five fingers are not equal though. We have the good and bad people among all societies. Some in greater numbers than the others.
I don't know about elevating one's social status. If I think 'negative' about someone, then it certainly is not with the thought that I am better than them.
@ bold: I quite agree. It's such an ingrained quality, that I doubt we can unlearn it.
We can unlearn anything and everything, we just need to make an attempt!
Originally posted by immunoblot
Originally posted by -Aladin-
Originally posted by immunoblot
Originally posted by -Aladin-
Some desis would often misguide you too over here. My dad often says, 'yahan pe aa ke dimaagh kharaab ho jaata hai'. πππ
LOL... I do that too... Even if I don't know the raasta, I still give very elaborate and genuine-sounding directions... πππ (I do that even here in DE! π)
No, I wasn't just talking about raasta. Wo to chooti baat hai.
When my parents came here, they had to write their exams to update their degrees, but everyone gave them wrong advise on purpose. Everyone asks my dad, out of all his friends, because he's the only one who always give genuine advise. ππ My dad tells us the same. Deni hai to sahi advise do, aur nahin dena chahte, to mat do. Why would you misguide others? ππ
Haan, wrong advice is a bad thing...
The thing with the raasta is that I can't say "no" to people... they ask me where something is, and I say "yes!"... and I proceed to tell them where it could be... *bad habit smiley.
Originally posted by immunoblot
Originally posted by pinkisluv91
I think I have never observed that Indian people aren't PCπ, or maybe it's because I live in a non-indian neighborhood. But I would probably care about the people(maybe that's just me personally) esp if I was writing a book.
So he called her kaali but only you understood right? Isn't that still politically correct? I mean if he said black to her that would be incorrect, or is it incorrect regardless? I'm confusedπ. Because if that's true then no one is politically correct. Everyone uses terms like that.π€ Everyone I have come across calls African Americans black.
Omg 12 pages of prejudice and Politically correct people π, I missed out on a lot:((
Pinki! π€ We were missing you...
No it isn't PC, if you use a pejorative term for an individual in the presence of people who disapprove of that, then it is non-PC...
You have see the merits of every person... This grad student in question is one of the most patient people I have ever come across in my life (and that is saying quite a lot)... I honestly felt bad when this stupid woman called repeatedly called her "kaali"... It was almost as if that girl doesn't have a name, or doesn't have anything else to distinguish her, except for her skin colour.
And with us desis, the gora-kala is one thing, the Gujju-Bengali another, and let us not even talk about castes. Political correctness would be when you are egalitarian and consider every person to be worthy. And would have a view-point which doesn't offend anyone. (Like Martin in the book, he completes his tirade with stating that he intends no offense to the people of Sydney!) Most desi people will barely reach that level...
Originally posted by immunoblot
Originally posted by pinkisluv91
I missed you guys too and a lot of pagesπ
Well that's bad if she repeatedly said it. π Did you know that girls name, did she? π
Gora-kaala is bad only if it's meant in a bad way, we use those at home just to talk abt someone whose name we don't knowπ to describe them. I didn't know abt the gujju-bengaliπ. I hate the caste system, it's too much. Do you think it's possible to have a viewpoint that wouldn't offend anyone? I don't think anyone can reach that level. Once I called a local police station and they asked me if the person I was talking abt was white or black instead of being PC and saying Caucasian or African American, I was going to correct herππ
Of course, we know her name Pinki... She works with us... πππ
And, it is different... in France for instance, the government establishment is colour-blind. It is prohibited to say white-black, etc... The police posters are also printed with terms like "dark complexion" instead... It depends from place to place, I'd say...
In India, it is terrible... last year, there was a news piece highlighting the troubles of African students... Apparently they all understood what "kaaliya" means...
I imagined, if people called me anything like that, I'd be very unhappy about it... I wouldn't mind if neutral words are used... that is definitely possible... You can use words like "African/Indian/European descent" for instance... that wouldn't be offensive. Or, if you are working with a person, it would be best to ask his/her name and use it instead...
Originally posted by Veritas
Blot ji Indians are worst of the lot...I have a friend who is from UP.She is a little dark complexioned,but she was really insecure about it.....Her older sister is quiet fair(and there was alot of comparision).I went to her home for a party and some of her relatives were there.
They were congratulating her mom saying :Acha hua apne apni choti beti ko engineer bana diya warna iske rang ki wajah se kaun shadi karta".
somehow in India its ok to disparage someone because of their color/caste/religion
Psst: this is what got me interested in"sapna babul ka..."
How did "Sapna babul ka" start with all this??? Is it on similar lines???
Originally posted by immunoblot
Originally posted by nitz17
Originally posted by immunoblot
Two/three weeks ago, I had my holiday and was so bored that I decided to clean the pebbles from the sidewalks to kill the time... and while everybody who passed by gave my such plesant looks, the desis were simply obnoxious...
There was one older guy, perhaps the father of another student, who commented to her daughter(?): yahaan aakar yeh log sadakon par jhaadu lagaane ko bhi taiyyar hain... I wanted to say something really rude to them, but by the time I could think up with a suitable come-back line, they were already gone quite some distance away...
This only reminded me that such people are even worse than the assorted xenophboes we might see in the countries that we live in... they hate even their own kind...
LOL... (highlighted sentence) it's like antonym of Live and let others live.
Yeah... exactly... and I'm not even making a livelihood by lagaoing jhaadu... Not that there is anything wrong with it...
And I can quite imagine how the desis were jeering... When I was new in DE, I got to know that there are two groups of the desi students at the Uni... one believed in Mata Anandamayi, the other did not. I was expected to take sides...
I shld have been at ur Univ...then there would have been a third grp of students singing "Axeion Mata ki Jai" ππ JK
Anyhoo... I guess we are ready to conclude that desis lack a basic sense of PC-ness (mostly), even though Aladin ji had some lovely experiences with other desi people. In the context of the story, the British people (and the anglophone first world countries in general) have a social order which respects this PC-ness...
(The whole discussion was kinda pointless actually, but I am ready with my second question... which I will write soon.)
Originally posted by RainbowWarrior
I've always wanted to go to Australia so I found this line really funny from Martin
"Suicide was my Sydney"
I'll take the plane, thank you very much π
A. People of Sydney seem to be very fickle these days and might well be offended by anything (and simply blame it on the Indians π€’) It all depends on the colour of the party trying to offend, unfortunately.
B. Pretty universal I'd say, I've used it myself occasionally but it's not the best practice in extreme. Think of all the hyperventilating (psycho) super patriotic Americans who plant an American flag in one hand and go about wiping out huge masses of the world population with the other, all in the name of 'homeland security', 'fight on terror', 'dancing with wolves π' etc. You can't question them 'cos they mean you no harm, they are only protecting their own people, none of whom live in Iraq or Afghanistan π€
Don't talk about the American Defense policies...they suck. I am fed up of fighting with Max everyday on these issues.
C. hmmm... desi eh? The second hero (side kick) does it all the time in hindi films.
Side hero (short chubby guy with day old stubble on his chin, wearing un-tucked non-designer checked shirts over very baggy jeans and 80's loafers and a blue baseball cap turned backwards): Dekh, tu bura mat maan na, mai bus keh raha ho, mai galat bhi ho sakta hoon, mujhe mat peetna ok... but mujhe woh teri type ki nahi lag rahi hai
Hero (tall well-built, almost good looking but the hair style is rubbish, wearing designer clothes to the t, shades, rolex, no socks in sneakers and carries a torn up wallet with no money inside... the director paid for the clothes you see, but the hero is actually a poor guy in the film): Aye! Kya bol raha hai? Tujhe maaronga ab... woh toh mujh se hi shaadi karegi.
π
Originally posted by RainbowWarrior
And this would be proof 1056 for me not being a 'desi'. I've known this a long long time now..
I've spent too long of my adolescent years calling people 'bubble head' and 'lizard feet' (which only made folks laugh). Even now, I use these names as opposed to proper(?) offensive words. I don't know if it makes me politically correct but it's more fun and keeps any ill spirit out of the conversation and out of my head π So, I'm non-PC but still am PC, 'cos I cause no offense and hence I'm non-desi.. the non-desi theory is hence proved π
Originally posted by nitz17
Earlier convicts were marooned on Australia and one place being New South Wales where Sydney is located. So he might be thinking that suicide was like marooning himself to another place like Sydney (his Sydney). These are just my thoughts π³
A. i am not from New Delhi but just stayed 3 days but from my experience I wouldn't get offended. Even if someone said 'Suicide was my Bangalore' I wouldn't get offended either π
B. It's not just British but everywhere it is the same. I suppose, since the writer is British he thinks it happens only in Britain
C. Even today's movies have the main characters running away from dark people/hermaphrodites who approach them thinking they are beautiful from back side. So no.... they dont even make an attempt to be politically correct.. I even wonder whether many Indians know what PC means....