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baz786

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 3:04pm | IP Logged
my views on inter-racial marriage is that it may work in term of the couple but there are other factors like the kids will be confused in terms of what culture or religion to follow.

n not only that the differences could eventually cause problems between the couple

not to mention how the parents will feel.

personally im against inter-racial marriage cause i would not want to go against my parents wishes

plus there is another factor here society still is against people marrying with one another even though there religion is same but cast is different or there from a different country

in islam there is no such thing as casts or colour or race as long as the person is muslim and is able to provide for ones family after marriage that shud be sufficient but the world doesn't work like that

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karandel_2008

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 5:49pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by karandel_2008

I dont agree somewhat to some lines below and here are some answers:

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

SmileOf course, but love for your parents should always precede love for your partner, because your parents brought you into the Earth and made you who you are, not your partner.

What if its the question of "do you care about yourself more" or "do you care about your parents more, at the cost of ruining your life"? Remember it will  be your life to lead after whatever decision is taken for marriage etc.
My answer to this question is in my previous reply, using quotes from Shri Ramcharitmanas. Even at the cost of "ruining" one's life, parent's always come first. No arguments. At least, this is my firm belief. I know no one else agrees with me, but that's okay.Big smile
....

Parents have always known what is best for their kid, and they always will.

It is impossible for anyone to know "best" about some "other" person. After some age, only we know best about ourselves (but it is not applicable to those who have no idea about what they want in their life) and parents can always guide us, with their own experience, but, like I say, they should never dictate.

I will give you an example( a common scenario in some Indian families ) :
A kid wants to join coaching for IIT/IIM/(put any competitive exam) entrance exam. His father is opposed to the idea because during his time people didnt need coaching and thinks coaching and all is just a scam. He doesnt realize that times have changed and right coaching can always help.
The kid somehow joins coaching without the knowledge of this father and succeeds in his exams.

now what do you say? boy was wrong and he should have not done that?

 
 
Yeah, the boy was wrong, because he did not understand his father's intent. Sure, he passed the exam, but at what cost? Disobeying his father.Ermm Maybe his father could not afford the coaching? There could be a million reasons for his father saying that, and it was the son's duty to try to understand his father.

what if the father was very happy that the child did that? What  if he realised  he was wrong and apologized to the kid?

BTW, something similar happened to Neil Nitin Mukesh when his father was very angry with him for acting in Johnny Gaddar.

 
 
Parents, even if they do not know 'the best', know a lot more than the kids, and that is something youngsters these days should understand. Youngsters today are egoistical, they think they know everything, when in reality, they know nothing compared to the wisdom their parents have.

It's really their Karma that they harbor the desire to go against their parents to chase after their "own happiness". How can one feel happy when they know they are causing unhappiness to their parents in marrying someone their parents do not want them to...I can never understand, nor respect them.Confused

You cannot generalize the youngsters and all are not like that. I can also say that I do not respect the parents who act like nazis for their kids. But, remember that things are not 0 and 1 in reality and I agree that parents are right in many cases and thats why I said that this doesnt apply to people who dont know what they want in their life.




Even if you talk about teachings then I believe that "one should always fight for truth" even if one has to go against parents, gurus or relatives. This is the case in Mahabharata (excluding parents). Truth always comes first and then comes any other thing.





Edited by karandel_2008 - 18 October 2009 at 5:53pm

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 8:10pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by karandel_2008

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by karandel_2008

I dont agree somewhat to some lines below and here are some answers:

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

SmileOf course, but love for your parents should always precede love for your partner, because your parents brought you into the Earth and made you who you are, not your partner.

What if its the question of "do you care about yourself more" or "do you care about your parents more, at the cost of ruining your life"? Remember it will  be your life to lead after whatever decision is taken for marriage etc.
My answer to this question is in my previous reply, using quotes from Shri Ramcharitmanas. Even at the cost of "ruining" one's life, parent's always come first. No arguments. At least, this is my firm belief. I know no one else agrees with me, but that's okay.Big smile
....

Parents have always known what is best for their kid, and they always will.

It is impossible for anyone to know "best" about some "other" person. After some age, only we know best about ourselves (but it is not applicable to those who have no idea about what they want in their life) and parents can always guide us, with their own experience, but, like I say, they should never dictate.

I will give you an example( a common scenario in some Indian families ) :
A kid wants to join coaching for IIT/IIM/(put any competitive exam) entrance exam. His father is opposed to the idea because during his time people didnt need coaching and thinks coaching and all is just a scam. He doesnt realize that times have changed and right coaching can always help.
The kid somehow joins coaching without the knowledge of this father and succeeds in his exams.

now what do you say? boy was wrong and he should have not done that?

 
 
Yeah, the boy was wrong, because he did not understand his father's intent. Sure, he passed the exam, but at what cost? Disobeying his father.Ermm Maybe his father could not afford the coaching? There could be a million reasons for his father saying that, and it was the son's duty to try to understand his father.

what if the father was very happy that the child did that? What  if he realised  he was wrong and apologized to the kid?

BTW, something similar happened to Neil Nitin Mukesh when his father was very angry with him for acting in Johnny Gaddar.

 
 
Parents, even if they do not know 'the best', know a lot more than the kids, and that is something youngsters these days should understand. Youngsters today are egoistical, they think they know everything, when in reality, they know nothing compared to the wisdom their parents have.

It's really their Karma that they harbor the desire to go against their parents to chase after their "own happiness". How can one feel happy when they know they are causing unhappiness to their parents in marrying someone their parents do not want them to...I can never understand, nor respect them.Confused

You cannot generalize the youngsters and all are not like that. I can also say that I do not respect the parents who act like nazis for their kids. But, remember that things are not 0 and 1 in reality and I agree that parents are right in many cases and thats why I said that this doesnt apply to people who dont know what they want in their life.




Even if you talk about teachings then I believe that "one should always fight for truth" even if one has to go against parents, gurus or relatives. This is the case in Mahabharata (excluding parents). Truth always comes first and then comes any other thing.



 
Lol, whoever said disobeyong one's parents is the "truth"?LOL And it's a bit high of you to compare yourself with the Pandavs and Krishna, no?Wink You should also realize that both Krishna and Ram stressed the importance of mother and father over one's own interests, and the Mahabharat war happened to establish righteousness and punish the sinful, not something a group of upstarts started or proove that their own self interests are more valuable to them than obeying their parents.

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 8:17pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

You maybe able to cite scripture, but scripture is not proof.

 
For you it isn't, but for me, it is as much proof as me sitting in front of my computer, typing this very reply. If I go to my parents for advice and they do not know how to give a good reply to some of my questions, they always advice me to refer to the scriptures because they are never wrong and will always guide you on the right path. The scriptures are as much a part of me as my heart is, so no, I cannot debate moral/ethical issues without bringing in scriptures, because they, along with my life experiences, are what shaped my opinions and beliefs. Unless you want me to cease leaving replies in this forum where ethical debates are concerned, you will continue seeing citations from Hindu scriptures. So just tell me if it is breaking forum rules by bringing in religion to back up my beliefs. If it is, I will not leave any more replies, because I respect your decision.

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 8:20pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by karandel_2008

I dont agree somewhat to some lines below and here are some answers:

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_



Parents have always known what is best for their kid, and they always will.

It is impossible for anyone to know "best" about some "other" person. After some age, only we know best about ourselves (but it is not applicable to those who have no idea about what they want in their life) and parents can always guide us, with their own experience, but, like I say, they should never dictate.

I will give you an example( a common scenario in some Indian families ) :
A kid wants to join coaching for IIT/IIM/(put any competitive exam) entrance exam. His father is opposed to the idea because during his time people didnt need coaching and thinks coaching and all is just a scam. He doesnt realize that times have changed and right coaching can always help.
The kid somehow joins coaching without the knowledge of this father and succeeds in his exams.

now what do you say? boy was wrong and he should have not done that?

 
 
Yeah, the boy was wrong, because he did not understand his father's intent. Sure, he passed the exam, but at what cost? Disobeying his father.Ermm Maybe his father could not afford the coaching? There could be a million reasons for his father saying that, and it was the son's duty to try to understand his father.
 
Parents, even if they do not know 'the best', know a lot more than the kids, and that is something youngsters these days should understand. Youngsters today are egoistical, they think they know everything, when in reality, they know nothing compared to the wisdom their parents have. It's really their Karma that they harbor the desire to go against their parents to chase after their "own happiness". How can one feel happy when they know they are causing unhappiness to their parents in marrying someone their parents do not want them to...I can never understand, nor respect them.Confused


I agree with Karandel on the fact that 'Parents may want whats best for children, but may not always know whats best'. The fact is that no amount of wisdom or life experience can withstand the test of time. The world is constantly changing, every person, every situation is unique. A solution that worked for parent's ages ago may not work for children today. Even parent's with the best intent can ruin children's lives. They may force children into education, career and life choices that children regret, resent or end up being miserable with. There are too many parents who realize late in life on how they held back their children and spend their last few years in guilt. The worst burden for a human being to bear is knowledge that they held back someone they loved and caused their misery.

The greater good is not always black and white. There are no perfect golden rules that apply all the time. Sometimes for the greater good parents have to betray children, and sometimes children have to betray parents - life's like that. Every person ought to be their own individual so that they can be accountable for every one of their life choices. That way no one is to blame.

Besides I thought when it comes to karma, one is instructed to only act in the manner they deem best. It is futile for man to expect fruition or determine what is good and bad. Only the higher forces that be can decide on that. Humans are expected to only act based on guidelines that there maybe. The key is that person have right conduct and intent in their heart. There is no play by play game book - only guidelines. If you live by the principle that 'x is a universal truth' and 'x is good karma' that is why 'people ought to do x'. Then the principle of karma is moot - because you are not being good because your intent is good, you are being good because you believe there is a rule x of being good and you are expecting that following rule x will bear good. You see you have completely contradicted the principles of acting with good intent and leaving consequences to the forces that be.

In my opinion a person who uses their entire human thought process to act in a manner which they deem to be for the greater good is a better person than one who blindly follows a principle because they are convinced that it will result in good fruition.
 
No, that is not Karma. The rules of good and bad Karma are preordained by God and he gave them to us through the great mahatmas who wrote the scriptures. If every person acted in the way they think is best, how can anything be right or wrong in this world? God gave us a set of codes, and though they vary depending on situation, the way we act by those codes determines the fruit of our actions.Smile

souro

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 9:17pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by souro

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

sunu janani soi sutu baRabhaagi, jo pitu mata vachana anuraagi. tanaya matu pitu tosanihaara, durlabha janani sakala samsaara.
-Sri Ramchartimanasa (40)
 
Translation: Listen, mother: That son alone is blessed, who is devoted to the words of his parents. A son who gratifies his father and mother is rare in this entire world."
 
mata pita guru swami sikha sira dhari karahi subhaya, laheu labha tinha janama kara nataru janamu jaga jaya.
- Sri Ramcharitmanasa (70)
 
Translation: Those who reverentially and constrainedly follow the advice of their father and mother, preceptor and master, have reaped the fruit of their birth or else their coming into this world has been in vain.
 
Hope this made you understand.Smile
 
Jai Shri Ram!

Ramcharitmanas is not the original Ramayan. Whether original or not, Tulsidas is a highly revered saint and his Ramayan is taken as the basis by most people.Smile

Coming to your points. People who follow their parent's advice may or may not end up that well in life. It all depends on how intelligent and knowledgeable the parents are. Will you bet your life on an illiterate father with a below 50 IQ making correct decisions for his children?? Like I said, the parents you get is based on your Karma in your previous lives. If you do good karma, you'll get good competent parents in your next life, so yes, children should still listen to their father even if he is illiterate, because he is still the reason you are born.
How do you know that the parents we get is a result of karma of our previous lives?? How do you know that there were previous lives before??
And according to you because of karma we may end up with competent or incompetent parents but even if they're incompetent we still have to listen to them. Give me a good reason why should a child listen to his parents if they're incompetent?? Just because they gave birth to the child doesn't mean that they own it's life, what you're expecting is slave and master relation between a child and it's parents.

Take Ramayan as an example. Dasarath asked Ram to leave the kingdom and forced him to go on exile. Ram followed his father's orders. But will you say that Dasarath actually took a good decision in sending away Ram?? Actually, I don't think you read Ramayan correctly, because Dashrath never sent Ram away. He neither agreed to Kaikeyi's boons, nor did he disagree with them, because he was torn between his Dharm as a father and King. Should he go against his promise to Kaikeyi or Ram? Literally, Ram sent himself away to lessen the pain of his father making a decision and either way bringing dishonor on their family. If he went against his promise to Kaikeyi, people would say he was weak over his love for his son and that he was not trustworthy. If he went against the promise of the throne to Ram, people would say he was weak over his love for his wife and still not trustworthy. Either way, he would have been ruined. So Ramji exiled himself to honor both his mother and father's word and not bring dishonor upon their house.Smile
What... Ram took a decision on his own because his father couldn't. But if you're correct then Ram should've waited till his father arrived at a decision and he was wrong in taking the decision on his own.
And see, you may want to be poetic about the fault of Dasrath just because he was the father of Ram but the fact still remains that he was not far sighted enough to see what his promise can bring him.

Dasarath died just after Ram left and so thankfully Ram didn't have to follow some more of those strange instructions. One would have to be a punyatma to get a father like Dashrath, and a Dharmatma to have a son like Ramji. Sorry if Dashrath is not modern enough for you. Dashrath never gave Shri Ram "strange instructions", I think you're mixing up Ramayan for another story.Smile
The very fact that someone wants his child to go on exile just to keep a promise is strange. Even though he may not have said it directly but his indecision says that sending Ram to exile was also an option to Dasrath. Maybe such decisions ain't strange enough for you but it is for me.
But if a father continues to give such strange instructions, will you rather prefer that the son should pray for his father's quick death?? When did Ramji pray for his father's death?Confused No offense, but what in the world are you saying? It is a son's Dharm to follow his father's word dear, whether you like it or not.
I didn't say that Ram prayed for his father's death. I'm saying his father died soon after he left. Whereas there are people who may give equally strange instructions and enjoy a long life, so what should their children do??
If asking someone to go into exile is not strange then let's try something else. Parent's earlier used to say that girls shouldn't study. They did not let the girl work. In case sati, many times it used to be the parents who used to force the daughter to commit sati. Will you say that following those instructions is also the duty of every children??


IMO it is much better if the son tries to make his father see reason.
Even though almost all parents have the well being of their children in their mind when they decide something, but still they do take some wrong decisions. Youngsters take even more wrong decisions.
Prove it.

When you say that youngsters nowadays are egotistical you are just uttering what every older generation feel about the next generation. No, I'm uttering what I feel, and you're uttering what you feel. Leave everyone else out of it.
Ok, will leave everyone else out of it, then why include Ram, Dasrath, et al into it. You can include anyone you feel like but I can't, is it??

So, even those who are parents today had that much ego in them. Kids have more, lots more.
Prove it.

And the same ego and cultural conditioning can make them take a wrong decision overlooking what is better for their children. But since it's the life of the child that is in question here, the ultimate decision should rest with him/ her. Parents have been through the age their kids are going through, so ultimately, they will know what decision to make.
Say someone gains some experience at the age of 25. Will you say that all others who are 25 yr old and above have gained the same experience?? If not, then how can parents always know what decision the child should take. The experience of the child will be unique from that of it's parents and the decisions that the child takes will be based on those experiences plus whatever wisdom he might have gathered from his parents and others.
It's the kid's good fortune whether they listen to their parents or not.
Prove it that it'll be a good fortune.

By the way, since you're giving examples from Ramayan, maybe you'll also know that Ram and Sita's marriage were not exactly arranged. Sita kept a condition and she was ready to marry whoever fulfilled that condition. Do you see any role of her father in all this?? He was just an on-looker in all these proceedings and had no idea who his son-in-law is going to be. No, Sita did not. Janak made the vow, not her. When Sita was a child, she lifted the bow for child's play so Janak made a vow that whoever lifted the bow would be her suitor. For those days, Swayamvars were another form of arranged marriages.
But in swayamvar it is the girl who used to decide, then according to your logic, how can that be right??
Come to Mahabharat, there are instances where couples eloped and got married. And most of the times couples elope because elders can at times be too stubborn and egotistic and many times tend to oppose something just because it is new and not familiar. Krishna and Rukmini: Rukmini's parents wanted her to marry Krishna. It was her brother who wanted her to marry Sishupal. Parents word comes first, so Krishna did no wrong in kidnapping Rukmini. It wasn't really kidnap if he had her father's permission, is it?Wink Same with Arjuna and Subhadra. It was never the parents that were against the marriages, always the brothers. Any more examples you want explanations for?
Maybe the parents were not against, but they did not gave their daughter away a well. Their daughter fell in love and eloped. But according to you, falling in love before marriage itself is quite wrong. Also, I don't think that the daughter asked for her parent's permission before falling in love. Then how does their action become justified??

If it is new and the older person is not farsighted enough to see it then it is their problem, why should the younger person who wants to adopt the new suffer for the shortsightedness of someone else?? Because they should stop being idiots and just listen to their parents.
Prove it that they're idiots.
If there is credible reason for opposing then yes everyone should pay heed to it and those who don't listen to even sound reasons and advice are foolish. But if there is no credible reason and people are opposing just for the heck of it then ultimately the one whose life is going to be affected should take the decision as no one else is going to live his life.
If that's your opinion, then great, but it ain't a fact dear. Not when it comes to God.
What is not a fact?? And how do you know what applies and what doesn't when it comes to God??

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 9:20pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by return_to_hades

You maybe able to cite scripture, but scripture is not proof.

 
For you it isn't, but for me, it is as much proof as me sitting in front of my computer, typing this very reply. If I go to my parents for advice and they do not know how to give a good reply to some of my questions, they always advice me to refer to the scriptures because they are never wrong and will always guide you on the right path. The scriptures are as much a part of me as my heart is, so no, I cannot debate moral/ethical issues without bringing in scriptures, because they, along with my life experiences, are what shaped my opinions and beliefs. Unless you want me to cease leaving replies in this forum where ethical debates are concerned, you will continue seeing citations from Hindu scriptures. So just tell me if it is breaking forum rules by bringing in religion to back up my beliefs. If it is, I will not leave any more replies, because I respect your decision.


It is perfectly your choice. Debate is a form of argument. Argument involves conflicting, questioning, contradicting, disproving, and shaking the foundations of the opposition. If you of your own volition open the door for someone to do that with your religion, you can feel free. All I expect is people not cry foul if you yourself choose to open the door.

As for me. I only argue rational arguments. I refuse to argue faith.

Peace out.




Edited by return_to_hades - 18 October 2009 at 9:20pm

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