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..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 10:28am | IP Logged
Originally posted by karandel_2008

I dont agree somewhat to some lines below and here are some answers:

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

SmileOf course, but love for your parents should always precede love for your partner, because your parents brought you into the Earth and made you who you are, not your partner.

What if its the question of "do you care about yourself more" or "do you care about your parents more, at the cost of ruining your life"? Remember it will  be your life to lead after whatever decision is taken for marriage etc.
My answer to this question is in my previous reply, using quotes from Shri Ramcharitmanas. Even at the cost of "ruining" one's life, parent's always come first. No arguments. At least, this is my firm belief. I know no one else agrees with me, but that's okay.Big smile
....

Parents have always known what is best for their kid, and they always will.

It is impossible for anyone to know "best" about some "other" person. After some age, only we know best about ourselves (but it is not applicable to those who have no idea about what they want in their life) and parents can always guide us, with their own experience, but, like I say, they should never dictate.

I will give you an example( a common scenario in some Indian families ) :
A kid wants to join coaching for IIT/IIM/(put any competitive exam) entrance exam. His father is opposed to the idea because during his time people didnt need coaching and thinks coaching and all is just a scam. He doesnt realize that times have changed and right coaching can always help.
The kid somehow joins coaching without the knowledge of this father and succeeds in his exams.

now what do you say? boy was wrong and he should have not done that?

 
 
Yeah, the boy was wrong, because he did not understand his father's intent. Sure, he passed the exam, but at what cost? Disobeying his father.Ermm Maybe his father could not afford the coaching? There could be a million reasons for his father saying that, and it was the son's duty to try to understand his father.
 
Parents, even if they do not know 'the best', know a lot more than the kids, and that is something youngsters these days should understand. Youngsters today are egoistical, they think they know everything, when in reality, they know nothing compared to the wisdom their parents have. It's really their Karma that they harbor the desire to go against their parents to chase after their "own happiness". How can one feel happy when they know they are causing unhappiness to their parents in marrying someone their parents do not want them to...I can never understand, nor respect them.Confused

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hindu4lyf

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 11:25am | IP Logged

"How can one feel happy when they know they are causing unhappiness to their parents in marrying someone their parents do not want them to...I can never understand, nor respect them."

I couldn't agree any more on this point. After knowing that when I decide to get married, for the whole 20 odd years of my life, my parents have been behind me for every decision I have made, guiding me in the right path, supporting me when I was confused/needed help, giving me financial help at uni, to just being there when I needed them the most. After doing soo much for me, it would be impossible for me to go against them and marry someone outside my culture/religion even if I did wish for it to happen. My parents don't expect me to pay them back for anything they do for me but I know that I would never ever be able to live with the guilt that I've embarassed my parents or put them down. It's not that I always listen to my parents, we argue a lot of times but to make such a big decision of my life without their consent or their blessings would be something I could never live with.
 
But i'll conclude again by saying it depends on one's upbringing/values/tradition etc.

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 11:44am | IP Logged
Originally posted by hindu4lyf

"How can one feel happy when they know they are causing unhappiness to their parents in marrying someone their parents do not want them to...I can never understand, nor respect them."

I couldn't agree any more on this point. After knowing that when I decide to get married, for the whole 20 odd years of my life, my parents have been behind me for every decision I have made, guiding me in the right path, supporting me when I was confused/needed help, giving me financial help at uni, to just being there when I needed them the most. After doing soo much for me, it would be impossible for me to go against them and marry someone outside my culture/religion even if I did wish for it to happen. My parents don't expect me to pay them back for anything they do for me but I know that I would never ever be able to live with the guilt that I've embarassed my parents or put them down. It's not that I always listen to my parents, we argue a lot of times but to make such a big decision of my life without their consent or their blessings would be something I could never live with.
 
But i'll conclude again by saying it depends on one's upbringing/values/tradition etc.
 
I couldn't have said it better myself.Clap

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 11:48am | IP Logged
Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

sunu janani soi sutu baRabhaagi, jo pitu mata vachana anuraagi. tanaya matu pitu tosanihaara, durlabha janani sakala samsaara.
-Sri Ramchartimanasa (40)
 
Translation: Listen, mother: That son alone is blessed, who is devoted to the words of his parents. A son who gratifies his father and mother is rare in this entire world."
 
mata pita guru swami sikha sira dhari karahi subhaya, laheu labha tinha janama kara nataru janamu jaga jaya.
- Sri Ramcharitmanasa (70)
 
Translation: Those who reverentially and constrainedly follow the advice of their father and mother, preceptor and master, have reaped the fruit of their birth or else their coming into this world has been in vain.
 
Hope this made you understand.Smile
 
Jai Shri Ram!

Ramcharitmanas is not the original Ramayan.
Coming to your points. People who follow their parent's advice may or may not end up that well in life. It all depends on how intelligent and knowledgeable the parents are. Will you bet your life on an illiterate father with a below 50 IQ making correct decisions for his children??
Take Ramayan as an example. Dasarath asked Ram to leave the kingdom and forced him to go on exile. Ram followed his father's orders. But will you say that Dasarath actually took a good decision in sending away Ram??
Dasarath died just after Ram left and so thankfully Ram didn't have to follow some more of those strange instructions. But if a father continues to give such strange instructions, will you rather prefer that the son should pray for his father's quick death?? IMO it is much better if the son tries to make his father see reason.
Even though almost all parents have the well being of their children in their mind when they decide something, but still they do take some wrong decisions. When you say that youngsters nowadays are egotistical you are just uttering what every older generation feel about the next generation. So, even those who are parents today had that much ego in them. And the same ego and cultural conditioning can make them take a wrong decision overlooking what is better for their children. But since it's the life of the child that is in question here, the ultimate decision should rest with him/ her.
By the way, since you're giving examples from Ramayan, maybe you'll also know that Ram and Sita's marriage were not exactly arranged. Sita kept a condition and she was ready to marry whoever fulfilled that condition. Do you see any role of her father in all this?? He was just an on-looker in all these proceedings and had no idea who his son-in-law is going to be.
Come to Mahabharat, there are instances where couples eloped and got married. And most of the times couples elope because elders can at times be too stubborn and egotistic and many times tend to oppose something just because it is new and not familiar. If it is new and the older person is not farsighted enough to see it then it is their problem, why should the younger person who wants to adopt the new suffer for the shortsightedness of someone else?? If there is credible reason for opposing then yes everyone should pay heed to it and those who don't listen to even sound reasons and advice are foolish. But if there is no credible reason and people are opposing just for the heck of it then ultimately the one whose life is going to be affected should take the decision as no one else is going to live his life.

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..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 1:25pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by souro

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

sunu janani soi sutu baRabhaagi, jo pitu mata vachana anuraagi. tanaya matu pitu tosanihaara, durlabha janani sakala samsaara.
-Sri Ramchartimanasa (40)
 
Translation: Listen, mother: That son alone is blessed, who is devoted to the words of his parents. A son who gratifies his father and mother is rare in this entire world."
 
mata pita guru swami sikha sira dhari karahi subhaya, laheu labha tinha janama kara nataru janamu jaga jaya.
- Sri Ramcharitmanasa (70)
 
Translation: Those who reverentially and constrainedly follow the advice of their father and mother, preceptor and master, have reaped the fruit of their birth or else their coming into this world has been in vain.
 
Hope this made you understand.Smile
 
Jai Shri Ram!

Ramcharitmanas is not the original Ramayan. Whether original or not, Tulsidas is a highly revered saint and his Ramayan is taken as the basis by most people.Smile
Coming to your points. People who follow their parent's advice may or may not end up that well in life. It all depends on how intelligent and knowledgeable the parents are. Will you bet your life on an illiterate father with a below 50 IQ making correct decisions for his children?? Like I said, the parents you get is based on your Karma in your previous lives. If you do good karma, you'll get good competent parents in your next life, so yes, children should still listen to their father even if he is illiterate, because he is still the reason you are born.
Take Ramayan as an example. Dasarath asked Ram to leave the kingdom and forced him to go on exile. Ram followed his father's orders. But will you say that Dasarath actually took a good decision in sending away Ram?? Actually, I don't think you read Ramayan correctly, because Dashrath never sent Ram away. He neither agreed to Kaikeyi's boons, nor did he disagree with them, because he was torn between his Dharm as a father and King. Should he go against his promise to Kaikeyi or Ram? Literally, Ram sent himself away to lessen the pain of his father making a decision and either way bringing dishonor on their family. If he went against his promise to Kaikeyi, people would say he was weak over his love for his son and that he was not trustworthy. If he went against the promise of the throne to Ram, people would say he was weak over his love for his wife and still not trustworthy. Either way, he would have been ruined. So Ramji exiled himself to honor both his mother and father's word and not bring dishonor upon their house.Smile
Dasarath died just after Ram left and so thankfully Ram didn't have to follow some more of those strange instructions. One would have to be a punyatma to get a father like Dashrath, and a Dharmatma to have a son like Ramji. Sorry if Dashrath is not modern enough for you. Dashrath never gave Shri Ram "strange instructions", I think you're mixing up Ramayan for another story.Smile But if a father continues to give such strange instructions, will you rather prefer that the son should pray for his father's quick death?? When did Ramji pray for his father's death?Confused No offense, but what in the world are you saying? It is a son's Dharm to follow his father's word dear, whether you like it or not. IMO it is much better if the son tries to make his father see reason.
Even though almost all parents have the well being of their children in their mind when they decide something, but still they do take some wrong decisions. Youngsters take even more wrong decisions. When you say that youngsters nowadays are egotistical you are just uttering what every older generation feel about the next generation. No, I'm uttering what I feel, and you're uttering what you feel. Leave everyone else out of it. So, even those who are parents today had that much ego in them. Kids have more, lots more. And the same ego and cultural conditioning can make them take a wrong decision overlooking what is better for their children. But since it's the life of the child that is in question here, the ultimate decision should rest with him/ her. Parents have been through the age their kids are going through, so ultimately, they will know what decision to make. It's the kid's good fortune whether they listen to their parents or not.
By the way, since you're giving examples from Ramayan, maybe you'll also know that Ram and Sita's marriage were not exactly arranged. Sita kept a condition and she was ready to marry whoever fulfilled that condition. Do you see any role of her father in all this?? He was just an on-looker in all these proceedings and had no idea who his son-in-law is going to be. No, Sita did not. Janak made the vow, not her. When Sita was a child, she lifted the bow for child's play so Janak made a vow that whoever lifted the bow would be her suitor. For those days, Swayamvars were another form of arranged marriages.
Come to Mahabharat, there are instances where couples eloped and got married. And most of the times couples elope because elders can at times be too stubborn and egotistic and many times tend to oppose something just because it is new and not familiar. Krishna and Rukmini: Rukmini's parents wanted her to marry Krishna. It was her brother who wanted her to marry Sishupal. Parents word comes first, so Krishna did no wrong in kidnapping Rukmini. It wasn't really kidnap if he had her father's permission, is it?Wink Same with Arjuna and Subhadra. It was never the parents that were against the marriages, always the brothers. Any more examples you want explanations for?   If it is new and the older person is not farsighted enough to see it then it is their problem, why should the younger person who wants to adopt the new suffer for the shortsightedness of someone else?? Because they should stop being idiots and just listen to their parents. If there is credible reason for opposing then yes everyone should pay heed to it and those who don't listen to even sound reasons and advice are foolish. But if there is no credible reason and people are opposing just for the heck of it then ultimately the one whose life is going to be affected should take the decision as no one else is going to live his life.
If that's your opinion, then great, but it ain't a fact dear. Not when it comes to God.

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 1:46pm | IP Logged
The only time a child has the right to disobey his/her parent's command is if the parent orders him/her to kill/harm another individual. Hindu scriptures back this up strongly. The moment a parent orders his/her child to harm another person or kill them, he/she loses the right to being a parent and the child is free to make his/her own decisions without the sin of disobeying their parents, because murder or torture is never condoned, except in wars, and that too wars whose intent is to establish righteousness.
 
But when a parent's order pertains to his/her child's life, the child should listen.

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 2:29pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by karandel_2008

I dont agree somewhat to some lines below and here are some answers:

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_



Parents have always known what is best for their kid, and they always will.

It is impossible for anyone to know "best" about some "other" person. After some age, only we know best about ourselves (but it is not applicable to those who have no idea about what they want in their life) and parents can always guide us, with their own experience, but, like I say, they should never dictate.

I will give you an example( a common scenario in some Indian families ) :
A kid wants to join coaching for IIT/IIM/(put any competitive exam) entrance exam. His father is opposed to the idea because during his time people didnt need coaching and thinks coaching and all is just a scam. He doesnt realize that times have changed and right coaching can always help.
The kid somehow joins coaching without the knowledge of this father and succeeds in his exams.

now what do you say? boy was wrong and he should have not done that?

 
 
Yeah, the boy was wrong, because he did not understand his father's intent. Sure, he passed the exam, but at what cost? Disobeying his father.Ermm Maybe his father could not afford the coaching? There could be a million reasons for his father saying that, and it was the son's duty to try to understand his father.
 
Parents, even if they do not know 'the best', know a lot more than the kids, and that is something youngsters these days should understand. Youngsters today are egoistical, they think they know everything, when in reality, they know nothing compared to the wisdom their parents have. It's really their Karma that they harbor the desire to go against their parents to chase after their "own happiness". How can one feel happy when they know they are causing unhappiness to their parents in marrying someone their parents do not want them to...I can never understand, nor respect them.Confused


I agree with Karandel on the fact that 'Parents may want whats best for children, but may not always know whats best'. The fact is that no amount of wisdom or life experience can withstand the test of time. The world is constantly changing, every person, every situation is unique. A solution that worked for parent's ages ago may not work for children today. Even parent's with the best intent can ruin children's lives. They may force children into education, career and life choices that children regret, resent or end up being miserable with. There are too many parents who realize late in life on how they held back their children and spend their last few years in guilt. The worst burden for a human being to bear is knowledge that they held back someone they loved and caused their misery.

The greater good is not always black and white. There are no perfect golden rules that apply all the time. Sometimes for the greater good parents have to betray children, and sometimes children have to betray parents - life's like that. Every person ought to be their own individual so that they can be accountable for every one of their life choices. That way no one is to blame.

Besides I thought when it comes to karma, one is instructed to only act in the manner they deem best. It is futile for man to expect fruition or determine what is good and bad. Only the higher forces that be can decide on that. Humans are expected to only act based on guidelines that there maybe. The key is that person have right conduct and intent in their heart. There is no play by play game book - only guidelines. If you live by the principle that 'x is a universal truth' and 'x is good karma' that is why 'people ought to do x'. Then the principle of karma is moot - because you are not being good because your intent is good, you are being good because you believe there is a rule x of being good and you are expecting that following rule x will bear good. You see you have completely contradicted the principles of acting with good intent and leaving consequences to the forces that be.

In my opinion a person who uses their entire human thought process to act in a manner which they deem to be for the greater good is a better person than one who blindly follows a principle because they are convinced that it will result in good fruition.

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 2:40pm | IP Logged
@ LalithaJanaki are you able to make any arguments without referring to scripture? There are many methods of moral and philosophical theory that can construct logical, rationalistic and realistic arguments without referring to scripture. You maybe able to cite scripture, but scripture is not proof. In ethics and moral theory using scripture is a fallacy - argumentum ad verecundiam. Ethics, moral theory, philosophy and logic which are the basis of argument - call for better arguments.

You cannot argue faith. Period.

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