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Interracial Marriage (Page 7)

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..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 5:43am | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

 
You made some good points, and I applaud you for this well thought out replyClap, but I cannot agree with you. Sorry, just my opinion.Smile

My aim is to not make anyone agree with me. Marriage is a very personal choice and everyone has the right to marry people they deem suitable and influence their family to follow such choices. That's where I disagree. I do not believe marriage is a personal choice. Parents should have just as much of a say in your marriage as yourself, because if it wasn't for them, you wouldn't exist today. You owe them at least that much. Also, if you won't let your family 'influence' you, what right do you have to influence them whatsoever? Marriage always should be within ones comfort zone, or else it may not work. Comfort zones vary by people.  

But honestly - do you think you have a right to be against such a marriage if two people  of different backgrounds agree to such an alliance? Should a judge or anyone have the right to deny them their choice? Yeah, I have a right to be against such a marriage because it is my personal choice/oppinion, but I've already written before that I will never publicly condemn someone or "deny them their rights" if they choose to marry outside their culture. They will just not have my support. If you have a right to support such marriages, why don't I have the right to not support them? It is your opinion that supporting these marriages is being "liberal", but it's not a fact. If the parents support these marriages, then great for their kids, but if the parents do not, I will never support the kids. If being liberal means to go against your parents' opinion and outright disobey them, then I do not want to be liberal, because to obey a parent's order is the highest Dharm of every being.   

 
It's interesting though that you have a multi-cultural family. Must be fun at times as well, especially during the holidays of all the religions.Wink
Basically we are Hindus, but being Bombayites we say we just need an excuse to celebrate. Most of the different cultures are in extended family. I'm looking to my white cousins marriage next year to an Easter European girl.

Are your parents both Konkani Brahmins?

My dads side is Konkani Brahmin. My mom is Gujarati. I joke - I am half Hindu, Half GoodJew (Gujju) I was raised Konkani Brahmin.

With all that I am 100% heathen. Lol, no wonder we differ so much in our opinions.LOL



You have absolutely and totally misconstrued most of what I am trying to say. Even in aspects where I actually do agree with you, they have been flipped over to insinuate something completely different. Although, I must add I'm not too surprised by the assumptions, I should have known.

Let me reiterate and expand on what I stated.

When I state marriage is a personal choice, I do not refer to personal as in 'individualistic' 'irregardless of others'. Marriage is one of the most important decisions a person will make in their life. Its meant to be a relationship for a lifetime. When I say 'personal' its not about who has a say. Its more of a consciousness thing. The definition of personal itself states something close to oneself in a deep manner, it says nothing about individualism. When I mean personal, I mean something very dear to the heart. Its a choice that involves people's values, beliefs, culture, expectations - in fact the very same things that you state drives your choices and opinions. 

Moving onto influence. You are simply assuming that I am saying that children should influence their parents. Where the heck you got the notion of me (or people in general) not allowing family to influence them - I do not know. Merely another assumption.

Influence is a two way street. People influence each other. For a parent the marriage of a child can be the penultimate responsibility. They will influence their children to instill certain values and beliefs, give them certain ideas and opinions, offer guidance and suggestion - in order to influence them positively and steer towards the right choices when it comes to marriage. People care for their near and dear ones, their friends and family. People will influence the choices of the people they care to ensure that they make the best decisions. That is why when it comes to an alliance like marriage, people always seek advice from trusted elders, family members and friends. Children also influence their parents. Its not rebellion or disrespect, its just expressing what qualities they are personally looking for so that parents may give them due consideration. Influence has a much broader context.

I think the problem here lay in the fact that the part where I said 'My aim is not to make anyone agree with me' was either misread or completely. I should have known better and added the qualifiers 'In fact I understand where some people are coming from'. That way the in between lines would have not been read as 'I'll argue my point anyway'.

So what I am trying to say is that I get where people are coming from. Marriage is a personal choice. For many people what their parents think and expect, what their family thinks and expect and societal expectations and responsibilities play an important role in their decisions. It is a personal choice, so its a decision between them and people close to them personally like parents siblings. Its a personal choice, where no one wants a third party unknown to them telling them what to do. For a concrete example, you do not want me telling you who to marry or defining marriage for you. Its personal - you would rather go to someone you personally trust and respect, in your case parents. its a personal choice which is why parents, children, friends and relatives have a right to influence each other. With a concrete example, Mahi and other parents have a notion of what is best for their kids. They have a right to influence their kids in choosing certain cultures/avoiding certain cultures. You have the right to influence your really close friends to listen to their parents and not do something stupid.

Now speaking of rights. When I refer to rights - I refer to civil rights. A legal right that an individual has. So all I am saying that neither you nor any court of law has the right to deny two people marriage simply because they are of a different age or culture. Neither you nor any court of law has the right to discriminate against people who do so in terms of employment, interactions etc.

Do you have a right to socially or morally oppose it on other reasons. Absolutely! You totally and completely have the right to determine what is socially and morally impermissible to you. You totally and completely have the right to form your own opinions on the way you believe things should be. You totally and completely have the right to support what you wish and not support what you wish. I would never oppose a right to personal opinion and expression of it. Unlike other people who are quick to draw lines of liberal or conservative propaganda, I do not perceive the world with me/against me - liberal/conservative.

Its all about the human being - life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Heck except for a few, no one actually knows what my complete personal opinions are. I could be a Natzee or a coon hunting redneck for all you now. Wink
 
Hmm, seems that I did misunderstand you in some points, sorry.Embarrassed Now that I understand your complete opinion, I admit that I agree with most of what you have to say, and am glad that at least you get where I'm coming from.
 
PeaceSmile

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..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 5:51am | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades



One thing I have to add is that if people feel they can never betray their parents and will only marry who their parents deem fit - have no right to fall in love outside marriage. And if they do they ought not to act upon it. There is nothing worse and low than making someone fall in love with you, pretending to be there - when ultimately when faced with the real test you will chicken out and leave them stranded. If a person cannot take accountability for their own relationships - they ought not to do it.
 
I agree with this point strongly.Clap While I will only marry a person my parents choose for me, since I am a strong believer of true love after marriage, I have no respect for someone who plays with the heart of someone else and then  goes back to their parents because they suddenly want to be all "cultural'. If you know beforehand that you will never betray your parents, you should not date others. (Actually, I do not believe in dating either, but that's another issue.Wink)


Edited by _LalithaJanaki_ - 18 October 2009 at 5:51am

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 6:00am | IP Logged
Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by Believe

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by Believe

Whatever you people disucssssss......remember the fact....Men are men....WinkTongueBut I believe If two people want to live together, they dont need any permission from any priest or any government. They need the permission of their hearts. And the day they feel that the time has come to part, again they don't need anybody's permission........
 
If man's love is free, there will not be blacks and whites, and there will not be these ugly discriminations, bcos love knows no boundaries......You can fall in love with a black man, you can fall in love with a white man or any color or caste or religion.....Love knows no religious scriptures.......I believe It knows only the heartbeat, and it knows it with absolute certainty...... Once love is free, it will prepare the ground for other fundamental rightsSmileKeep the love ....
 
Just chill.....with love n love only
 
Vinu's
 
It's not always about 'love'.  Let me clear ur ignornce.....plz note....In this world everything depend on love...SmileOf course, but love for your parents should always precede love for your partner, because your parents brought you into the Earth and made you who you are, not your partner.Smile-- When you fall in love with someone....they dont care about parents love ...but they think about themself only.....parents becom secondery that time...
 For someone to always go after what he/she wants, disregarding everything/everyone else, is selfish.--nobody bothers that a human who cannot love himself cannot love anybody else eitherSmile Love is not only the affection you might feel towards your partner. The affection you feel for your parents, siblings, and the rest of your family is also love. He/She who cannot love their parent will never be loved by their child.Smile
Everybody has their own idea of love. And only when you come to the state where all ideas about love have disappeared, where love is no more an idea but simply your being, then only will you know its freedom.Smile
 
 If parents oppose a marriage, it should not happen because your parents brought you up, not your partner. Without your parents, you would not be what you are today. A person should marry according to their parents' wishes despite how they themselves feel, because they owe at least that much to their parents.
 
In US still people feel these kind of things....its natural in india also people think different way as per their culture.....but today 90% people plan to marry with their own likes/wish....am talking abt inter caste or other blah blah marriage ...then they consult with parents.....SmileI don't care what '90% of India' does,--you should ,cos you posting something about india, and indians... because it does not make it right. right or wrong change depend on situation.....Following the westerners' idea of 'true love' has become a fashion these daysLOL, that people fail to see that India has the most meaningful examples of love in its truest purest form.Heart Also, who told you that 90% do what they want? All my married cousins married according to their parents' wishes and are perfectly happy with their spouses, with children as well. Westerners' cannot grasp the concept of "love after marriage', because it is alien and 'weird' to them, and lots of Indians these days, so set on imitating them, also think like that. Why is it then that love marriages have more divorces than arranged marriages? When people are free then they dicide to fall in love , after marriage when they loose the freedom they dicide to appart,thats happening now a days...the institution of marriage if there is not space n freedom like this happen in any marriage.....others just do live in reliationship....just hang n run  Smile
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 6:18am | IP Logged
One learns swimming by swimming, by loving one loves. n people are very miserly. .....They are waiting for some great beloved to happen, then they will love......Embarrassed They remain closed, they remain withdrawn. They just wait....n wait........Ouch From somewhere some Cleopatra/Tom cruise will come and then they will open their heart, bt by that time they have completely forgotten how to open it....Ouch Don't miss any opportunity of love.......Even passing in a street, you can be loving. Even to the beggar you can be lovingSmile. There is no need that you have to give him something....... you
can smile at least. It costs nothing -- but your very smile opens your heart, makes your heart more alive. Smile
 more you love, the more is the possibility for the right person to happen, cos your heart starts flowering...... n a flowering heart attracts many bees, many lovers....WinkBig smile.
 
My suggestion is that marriage shld happen after the honeymoon, never before it. ......only if everything goes right, only thn marriage should happen. Honeymoon after marriage is very dangerous.......Big smile
 
But people marry directly then no way to escape. Then the whole society, the law, the court -- everybody is against you if you leave the wife, or the wife leaves you. Then the whole morality, the religion, the priest, everybody is against you.....Smile
society should create all barriers possible fr marriage and no barrier for divorce.then Society should not allow people to marry so easily.Smile The court should create barriers -- live with the woman for two years at least, then the court can allow you to get married.Smile Right now they are doing just the reverse. If you want to get married, nobody asks whether you are ready or whether it is just a whim, just because you like the nose of the woman. What foolishness! One cannot live by just a long nose. After two days the nose will be forgotten....

Ppl have been living in a dream.... Reality destroys that dream.....Smile



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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 7:09am | IP Logged
Originally posted by PhoeniXof_Hades

Originally posted by souro


Accepting what one's child chooses doesn't really mean that the parent is comfortable with the choice. They're accepting it because their child can make that choice and there is nothing that parents can do to stop it. If it was possible maybe they'd have tried to influence their child's decision.
Choosing something for the child is just a reflection of the parent's own choice, and obviously if they don't like it they won't be comfortable with their child choosing that.


Why then put the entire population of mothers into the same group? As I said, my comment was for the hasty generalization that Mahi made. I am not rying to support or refute either of the point. I just find it amazing how people thinks they know about how each and every single individual of this world feels simply on the basis of their own thoughts.

Yes she was making a general statement, and that's what I had said that she was speaking in general, for the general trend/ choice of the larger population and she was definitely not making a politically correct statement.

Originally posted by PhoeniXof_Hades

Originally posted by souro

And I think she was just speaking in general about the attitude of desis towards blacks. It's not about counting how many desis love blacks and how many don't. Mostly they don't like blacks.


There is no question of 'liking' and 'not liking'. Read my posts again. Not agreeing with your daughter's choice in getting married to a Black person does not automatically mean the mother is a racist, just as agreeing with your daughter's choice does not make the mother a saint. She was speaking in general, however, she could have used 'most' or the 'majority' instead of 'all', to make her point stand out of the crowed, and lest they are not misquoted.

Yes she could've used the word 'most' or 'majority' instead of all, but sometimes people do say a few things in general. If someone says that Indians love masala in their food, will you say that what the person said is wrong?? Maybe there are a few Indians who like bland food but the statement was made in general about the choices of the desi people.

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 8:14am | IP Logged
I dont agree somewhat to some lines below and here are some answers:

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

SmileOf course, but love for your parents should always precede love for your partner, because your parents brought you into the Earth and made you who you are, not your partner.

What if its the question of "do you care about yourself more" or "do you care about your parents more, at the cost of ruining your life"? Remember it will  be your life to lead after whatever decision is taken for marriage etc.

....

Parents have always known what is best for their kid, and they always will.

It is impossible for anyone to know "best" about some "other" person. After some age, only we know best about ourselves (but it is not applicable to those who have no idea about what they want in their life) and parents can always guide us, with their own experience, but, like I say, they should never dictate.

I will give you an example( a common scenario in some Indian families ) :
A kid wants to join coaching for IIT/IIM/(put any competitive exam) entrance exam. His father is opposed to the idea because during his time people didnt need coaching and thinks coaching and all is just a scam. He doesnt realize that times have changed and right coaching can always help.
The kid somehow joins coaching without the knowledge of this father and succeeds in his exams.

now what do you say? boy was wrong and he should have not done that?

 


Edited by karandel_2008 - 18 October 2009 at 8:32am

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 9:09am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Meena1

Funny.. We were just discussing the Louisiana case in my class yesterday..LOLLOL..the justice needs to be removed.. Ermm

Inter-racial marriage is still a taboo in my famiily.. i dont think my mom would ever be able to accept me if I ever marry a black guy.. LOLLOLLOL
 
This.
 
Haha I would absolutely hate to see my mom's face if I ever bring a black guy home. But not just a black guy, any guy outside my race or religion. See when I look at reality tv shows and see how India is changing with the inter-racial and different religion marriages, I think wow. But then i go back to that same country in a year or two only to find that nothing is changed and it's as taboo yesterday, as it is today and probably will be tomorrow.ConfusedYou still hear the same ol' people badmouthing other cultures. Just recently a relative attented an inter-racial marriage of an Indian guy to an American girl in California. The mother was hell bent on finding an Indian girl for her son but it didn't work out, and just through looking at the pictures, you could tell that she wasn't able to enjoy her own son's wedding. But hey, that's the way it is right?
 
I dunno, you're right when you say marriage is all about compromose/sacrifice but I would never want to compromise on my culture or religion, or family for that matter but we can work round pretty much everything else. So I suppose it depends from person to person as to what you look for in someone and what you're prepared to give up for your marriage. I've seen both ends of it, the one's that work and the one's that don't so it's hard to generalise but yes, atleast in Indian culture it is still taboo. In our culture forget inter-racial marriages or getting married within the same religion, people want a guy/girl from the same caste/community. I think this is definitely more prevalent with gujjus and some punjabis. Me and a gujju friend of mine were having a discussion the other day and he was explaining to me the system of 'ghams', and interestingly someone asked him, what would your parents say if you bought a patel home lol and his response was that his dad would probably disown him. =|
In the UK, I find it's not as big of a deal with the Indians to marry someone as long as they are of the same religion or speak the same language, but as soon as it is outside the religion or inter-racial, the WHOLE society frowns upon it.
One of my distant relatives married outside the religion and 8 years after her marriage, her parents still haven't spoken a word to her and every time there is a community gathering, people never fail to bring it up and have a long discussion about how shes just ruined her whole life.Ouch
 
I know that cos of the way my extended family have brought me up, in a cultural way, the thought of inter-racial marriage would never cross my mind. I think there's too much to lose and it's probably not gonna be worth it.

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 10:18am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Believe

One learns swimming by swimming, by loving one loves. n people are very miserly. .....They are waiting for some great beloved to happen, then they will love......Embarrassed They remain closed, they remain withdrawn. They just wait....n wait........Ouch From somewhere some Cleopatra/Tom cruise will come and then they will open their heart, bt by that time they have completely forgotten how to open it....Ouch Don't miss any opportunity of love.......Even passing in a street, you can be loving. Even to the beggar you can be lovingSmile. There is no need that you have to give him something....... you
can smile at least. It costs nothing -- but your very smile opens your heart, makes your heart more alive. Smile
 more you love, the more is the possibility for the right person to happen, cos your heart starts flowering...... n a flowering heart attracts many bees, many lovers....WinkBig smile.
 
My suggestion is that marriage shld happen after the honeymoon, never before it. ......only if everything goes right, only thn marriage should happen. Honeymoon after marriage is very dangerous.......Big smile
 
But people marry directly then no way to escape. Then the whole society, the law, the court -- everybody is against you if you leave the wife, or the wife leaves you. Then the whole morality, the religion, the priest, everybody is against you.....Smile
society should create all barriers possible fr marriage and no barrier for divorce.then Society should not allow people to marry so easily.Smile The court should create barriers -- live with the woman for two years at least, then the court can allow you to get married.Smile Right now they are doing just the reverse. If you want to get married, nobody asks whether you are ready or whether it is just a whim, just because you like the nose of the woman. What foolishness! One cannot live by just a long nose. After two days the nose will be forgotten....

Ppl have been living in a dream.... Reality destroys that dream.....

 
Originally posted by Believe

One learns swimming by swimming, by loving one loves. n people are very miserly. .....They are waiting for some great beloved to happen, then they will love......Embarrassed They remain closed, they remain withdrawn. They just wait....n wait........Ouch From somewhere some Cleopatra/Tom cruise will come and then they will open their heart, bt by that time they have completely forgotten how to open it....Ouch Don't miss any opportunity of love.......Even passing in a street, you can be loving. Even to the beggar you can be lovingSmile. There is no need that you have to give him something....... you
can smile at least. It costs nothing -- but your very smile opens your heart, makes your heart more alive. Smile
 more you love, the more is the possibility for the right person to happen, cos your heart starts flowering...... n a flowering heart attracts many bees, many lovers....WinkBig smile.
 
My suggestion is that marriage shld happen after the honeymoon, never before it. ......only if everything goes right, only thn marriage should happen. Honeymoon after marriage is very dangerous.......Big smile
 
But people marry directly then no way to escape. Then the whole society, the law, the court -- everybody is against you if you leave the wife, or the wife leaves you. Then the whole morality, the religion, the priest, everybody is against you.....Smile
society should create all barriers possible fr marriage and no barrier for divorce.then Society should not allow people to marry so easily.Smile The court should create barriers -- live with the woman for two years at least, then the court can allow you to get married.Smile Right now they are doing just the reverse. If you want to get married, nobody asks whether you are ready or whether it is just a whim, just because you like the nose of the woman. What foolishness! One cannot live by just a long nose. After two days the nose will be forgotten....

Ppl have been living in a dream.... Reality destroys that dream.....Smile



 
First of all, what right do you have to imply that people who "don't fall in love" before marriage don't know love? Do you know what love is...true love? If one truly loved their parents, they'd sacrifice his/her each and every happines too serve their parents. That alone gives one moksha. One is not at all great if they marry one whom their parents do not approve of. Sure, they get their "happiness", but he/she who disobeys his/her parents by entering into a union with one whom their parents are against, he/she will never be blessed by God, and that union can never be called pure.
 
There are different forms of love. Love for ones' parents is highest and purest; then love for siblings and other family members, then love for society, and finally, love for your partner. Love for parents precedes every other form of love, that you should be ready to sacrifice even your love for your partner to follow the word of your parent, no matter what. Sacrifice makes one great, not going against one's culture and parents. No matter what the day and age, and no matter how "modernized" society becomes, only love for parents and following their word undyingly can liberate an individual. People can go ahead an marry the person they want even if their parents don't want them to marry that individual, but theirs is a false love, and it will not liberate them.
 
sunu janani soi sutu baRabhaagi, jo pitu mata vachana anuraagi. tanaya matu pitu tosanihaara, durlabha janani sakala samsaara.
-Sri Ramchartimanasa (40)
 
Translation: Listen, mother: That son alone is blessed, who is devoted to the words of his parents. A son who gratifies his father and mother is rare in this entire world."
 
mata pita guru swami sikha sira dhari karahi subhaya, laheu labha tinha janama kara nataru janamu jaga jaya.
- Sri Ramcharitmanasa (70)
 
Translation: Those who reverentially and constrainedly follow the advice of their father and mother, preceptor and master, have reaped the fruit of their birth or else their coming into this world has been in vain.
 
Hope this made you understand.Smile
 
Jai Shri Ram!

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