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..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 17 October 2009 at 1:18pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by mahikhan

^^Agreed one has no control on love you actually cann't help it. But one has few responsibilities to their family too.
 
Agree.Clap To forget one's responsibilties and just chase after their 'love', I don't support that.

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Posted: 17 October 2009 at 1:53pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by Believe

Whatever you people disucssssss......remember the fact....Men are men....WinkTongueBut I believe If two people want to live together, they dont need any permission from any priest or any government. They need the permission of their hearts. And the day they feel that the time has come to part, again they don't need anybody's permission........
 
If man's love is free, there will not be blacks and whites, and there will not be these ugly discriminations, bcos love knows no boundaries......You can fall in love with a black man, you can fall in love with a white man or any color or caste or religion.....Love knows no religious scriptures.......I believe It knows only the heartbeat, and it knows it with absolute certainty...... Once love is free, it will prepare the ground for other fundamental rightsSmileKeep the love ....
 
Just chill.....with love n love only
 
Vinu's
 
It's not always about 'love'.  Let me clear ur ignornce.....plz note....In this world everything depend on love...SmileFor someone to always go after what he/she wants, disregarding everything/everyone else, is selfish.--nobody bothers that a human who cannot love himself cannot love anybody else eitherSmileIf parents oppose a marriage, it should not happen because your parents brought you up, not your partner. Without your parents, you would not be what you are today. A person should marry according to their parents' wishes despite how they themselves feel, because they owe at least that much to their parents.
 
In US still people feel these kind of things....its natural in india also people think different way as per their culture.....but today 90% people plan to marry with their own likes/wish....am talking abt inter caste or other blah blah marriage ...then they consult with parents.....Smilein Arrange marriage its different concept there also if the boy or girl dont like the person...it will not work properly....Smile
 
no offence...its just my viewSmile


Edited by Believe - 17 October 2009 at 1:55pm

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Posted: 17 October 2009 at 2:38pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by Believe

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by Believe

Whatever you people disucssssss......remember the fact....Men are men....WinkTongueBut I believe If two people want to live together, they dont need any permission from any priest or any government. They need the permission of their hearts. And the day they feel that the time has come to part, again they don't need anybody's permission........
 
If man's love is free, there will not be blacks and whites, and there will not be these ugly discriminations, bcos love knows no boundaries......You can fall in love with a black man, you can fall in love with a white man or any color or caste or religion.....Love knows no religious scriptures.......I believe It knows only the heartbeat, and it knows it with absolute certainty...... Once love is free, it will prepare the ground for other fundamental rightsSmileKeep the love ....
 
Just chill.....with love n love only
 
Vinu's
 
It's not always about 'love'.  Let me clear ur ignornce.....plz note....In this world everything depend on love...SmileOf course, but love for your parents should always precede love for your partner, because your parents brought you into the Earth and made you who you are, not your partner.Smile For someone to always go after what he/she wants, disregarding everything/everyone else, is selfish.--nobody bothers that a human who cannot love himself cannot love anybody else eitherSmile Love is not only the affection you might feel towards your partner. The affection you feel for your parents, siblings, and the rest of your family is also love. He/She who cannot love their parent will never be loved by their child.Smile If parents oppose a marriage, it should not happen because your parents brought you up, not your partner. Without your parents, you would not be what you are today. A person should marry according to their parents' wishes despite how they themselves feel, because they owe at least that much to their parents.
 
In US still people feel these kind of things....its natural in india also people think different way as per their culture.....but today 90% people plan to marry with their own likes/wish....am talking abt inter caste or other blah blah marriage ...then they consult with parents.....SmileI don't care what '90% of India' does, because it does not make it right. Following the westerners' idea of 'true love' has become a fashion these daysLOL, that people fail to see that India has the most meaningful examples of love in its truest purest form.Heart Also, who told you that 90% do what they want? All my married cousins married according to their parents' wishes and are perfectly happy with their spouses, with children as well. Westerners' cannot grasp the concept of "love after marriage', because it is alien and 'weird' to them, and lots of Indians these days, so set on imitating them, also think like that. Why is it then that love marriages have more divorces than arranged marriages? It is because parents know what is best for their kid, their kid does not, despite being a 'mature adult', and parents will look for the partner who will best suit their child's interests and tastes. in Arrange marriage its different concept there also if the boy or girl dont like the person...it will not work properly....SmileArranged marriages are different these days. Parents do not force their kids to marry the person they choose for him/her. If their child does not like him/her, they will look for another person until they find the one their kid is happy to marry. Many times, people in love think they are in love when they are not. Parents have always known what is best for their kid, and they always will.
 
no offence...its just my viewSmileNo offence taken. I've stated my view and you've stated yours.

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 12:20am | IP Logged
Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by return_to_hades

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

 
You made some good points, and I applaud you for this well thought out replyClap, but I cannot agree with you. Sorry, just my opinion.Smile

My aim is to not make anyone agree with me. Marriage is a very personal choice and everyone has the right to marry people they deem suitable and influence their family to follow such choices. That's where I disagree. I do not believe marriage is a personal choice. Parents should have just as much of a say in your marriage as yourself, because if it wasn't for them, you wouldn't exist today. You owe them at least that much. Also, if you won't let your family 'influence' you, what right do you have to influence them whatsoever? Marriage always should be within ones comfort zone, or else it may not work. Comfort zones vary by people.  

But honestly - do you think you have a right to be against such a marriage if two people  of different backgrounds agree to such an alliance? Should a judge or anyone have the right to deny them their choice? Yeah, I have a right to be against such a marriage because it is my personal choice/oppinion, but I've already written before that I will never publicly condemn someone or "deny them their rights" if they choose to marry outside their culture. They will just not have my support. If you have a right to support such marriages, why don't I have the right to not support them? It is your opinion that supporting these marriages is being "liberal", but it's not a fact. If the parents support these marriages, then great for their kids, but if the parents do not, I will never support the kids. If being liberal means to go against your parents' opinion and outright disobey them, then I do not want to be liberal, because to obey a parent's order is the highest Dharm of every being.   

 
It's interesting though that you have a multi-cultural family. Must be fun at times as well, especially during the holidays of all the religions.Wink
Basically we are Hindus, but being Bombayites we say we just need an excuse to celebrate. Most of the different cultures are in extended family. I'm looking to my white cousins marriage next year to an Easter European girl.

Are your parents both Konkani Brahmins?

My dads side is Konkani Brahmin. My mom is Gujarati. I joke - I am half Hindu, Half GoodJew (Gujju) I was raised Konkani Brahmin.

With all that I am 100% heathen. Lol, no wonder we differ so much in our opinions.LOL



You have absolutely and totally misconstrued most of what I am trying to say. Even in aspects where I actually do agree with you, they have been flipped over to insinuate something completely different. Although, I must add I'm not too surprised by the assumptions, I should have known.

Let me reiterate and expand on what I stated.

When I state marriage is a personal choice, I do not refer to personal as in 'individualistic' 'irregardless of others'. Marriage is one of the most important decisions a person will make in their life. Its meant to be a relationship for a lifetime. When I say 'personal' its not about who has a say. Its more of a consciousness thing. The definition of personal itself states something close to oneself in a deep manner, it says nothing about individualism. When I mean personal, I mean something very dear to the heart. Its a choice that involves people's values, beliefs, culture, expectations - in fact the very same things that you state drives your choices and opinions. 

Moving onto influence. You are simply assuming that I am saying that children should influence their parents. Where the heck you got the notion of me (or people in general) not allowing family to influence them - I do not know. Merely another assumption.

Influence is a two way street. People influence each other. For a parent the marriage of a child can be the penultimate responsibility. They will influence their children to instill certain values and beliefs, give them certain ideas and opinions, offer guidance and suggestion - in order to influence them positively and steer towards the right choices when it comes to marriage. People care for their near and dear ones, their friends and family. People will influence the choices of the people they care to ensure that they make the best decisions. That is why when it comes to an alliance like marriage, people always seek advice from trusted elders, family members and friends. Children also influence their parents. Its not rebellion or disrespect, its just expressing what qualities they are personally looking for so that parents may give them due consideration. Influence has a much broader context.

I think the problem here lay in the fact that the part where I said 'My aim is not to make anyone agree with me' was either misread or completely. I should have known better and added the qualifiers 'In fact I understand where some people are coming from'. That way the in between lines would have not been read as 'I'll argue my point anyway'.

So what I am trying to say is that I get where people are coming from. Marriage is a personal choice. For many people what their parents think and expect, what their family thinks and expect and societal expectations and responsibilities play an important role in their decisions. It is a personal choice, so its a decision between them and people close to them personally like parents siblings. Its a personal choice, where no one wants a third party unknown to them telling them what to do. For a concrete example, you do not want me telling you who to marry or defining marriage for you. Its personal - you would rather go to someone you personally trust and respect, in your case parents. its a personal choice which is why parents, children, friends and relatives have a right to influence each other. With a concrete example, Mahi and other parents have a notion of what is best for their kids. They have a right to influence their kids in choosing certain cultures/avoiding certain cultures. You have the right to influence your really close friends to listen to their parents and not do something stupid.

Now speaking of rights. When I refer to rights - I refer to civil rights. A legal right that an individual has. So all I am saying that neither you nor any court of law has the right to deny two people marriage simply because they are of a different age or culture. Neither you nor any court of law has the right to discriminate against people who do so in terms of employment, interactions etc.

Do you have a right to socially or morally oppose it on other reasons. Absolutely! You totally and completely have the right to determine what is socially and morally impermissible to you. You totally and completely have the right to form your own opinions on the way you believe things should be. You totally and completely have the right to support what you wish and not support what you wish. I would never oppose a right to personal opinion and expression of it. Unlike other people who are quick to draw lines of liberal or conservative propaganda, I do not perceive the world with me/against me - liberal/conservative.

Its all about the human being - life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Heck except for a few, no one actually knows what my complete personal opinions are. I could be a Natzee or a coon hunting redneck for all you now. Wink

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 1:14am | IP Logged
Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

Originally posted by mahikhan

^^Agreed one has no control on love you actually cann't help it. But one has few responsibilities to their family too.
 
Agree.Clap To forget one's responsibilties and just chase after their 'love', I don't support that.
Yes so true we can be very liberal but we shouldn't cross our boundries i too don't support this.


Edited by mahikhan - 18 October 2009 at 1:26am

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 1:17am | IP Logged
Since the subject of parental consent has been breached, here is my personal opinion on it.

I never condone rebellion or opposing parents. No matter how strict or rigid they may act or behave, all they want is the very best for their children. Parental love is unconditional, and there is nothing more a parent wants to see than their children being the happiest. These are the people who sacrifice all to raise you, and people are forever indebted to their parents. Which is why when building relationships one should be conscientious of what their family expects of them.

However, choosing someone to spend the rest of your life with is a serious choice. This is someone who you will spend your life with, even after your parents are gone. This is someone whom you will spend every day with, not your parents. This is someone you ought to want to raise kids with. This is someone you will be introducing to everyone as your spouse. This is someone who will be the key person in your life after marriage. This someone definitely ought to be someone you want to be with, and I feel a person's input counts. Secondly, love is not an emotion we as humans are completely in control of, We never know whom we will fall in love.

Despite that I do not condone irresponsible actions or forgetting the important people in one's lives for the sake of love. I firmly believe that parents have unconditional love and want the best for their children. The best thing to do is to face the challenge head on and express your intent to your parents and focus into winning them over.

Before doing something hasty like eloping, remember that parents want the very best for you. If they are still sternly opposing - do they genuinely have a good reason. Could this person you love be actually wrong for you. Are you willing and ready to take the risk and bear its consequences. If they have no good reason other than stubbornness and conformism - people have a choice to make.

Which is why parents also need to sometimes take a step back and into their children's shoes. Is the person your child loves genuinely not suitable, or are you caught in a stubborn mindset. If this person is a good person, someone ready for marriage and capable of fulfilling all duties and responsibilities - is there good reason to oppose it. More importantly - is opposing the marriage worth breaking your child's heart. The whole question of rebellion or betrayal is moot if every human being opens their hearts a little with compassion.

In my honest opinion estrangement is a better choice than resentment. Love and relationships still exist subtly in estrangement. Only bitterness sustains in resentment. Estrangement can be reconciled. Resentment can never be. Times change, people change and past mistakes can be forgiven and forgotten. Resentment grows deeper and deeper each day.

I feel it is better to take the risk even if you may end up being hurt - because you will know that it was not right, it was not meant to be. Its always better than living a life of what ifs, and resentment towards people that they denied you your what ifs. Remember, if your heart is broken - you will always resent the person who broke it - even if it was you or your parents. Its a cardinal rule of the heart's irrationalities - it always resents the people who break it - no matter how much it loves them.

There are many people who will marry a person of their parents choice and live a happy loving married life, genuinely loving their spouse. However, what a lot of happily married couples never reveal is the burden of what ifs, the regrets and resentments that leave a sense of perpetual emptiness. People ought to know and be prepared that its a lot more compromise than they bargained for, and marriage becomes more about companionship love than passionate romantic love.

One thing I have to add is that if people feel they can never betray their parents and will only marry who their parents deem fit - have no right to fall in love outside marriage. And if they do they ought not to act upon it. There is nothing worse and low than making someone fall in love with you, pretending to be there - when ultimately when faced with the real test you will chicken out and leave them stranded. If a person cannot take accountability for their own relationships - they ought not to do it.

When it comes to arranged or love marriages, I am ambivalent. Its a matter of choice and people will do what they feel comfortable with. Some people believe in love and want to find their love, some people believe that marriage works best when parents choose the right one.

My only caveat with arranged marriage on a personal level is that I find that the cheapest and disgusting thing I could do in my life is sleep with someone I am not in love with or care about. I'm not judgmental when it comes to sex, but when it comes to myself that is something i cannot do. Unless I feel I am genuinely in love with the person, it will be all platonic. The only caveat with all that is I'm too lazy to find love on my own either.



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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 1:28am | IP Logged

Originally posted by return_to_hades

Since the subject of parental consent has been breached, here is my personal opinion on it.

I never condone rebellion or opposing parents. No matter how strict or rigid they may act or behave, all they want is the very best for their children. Parental love is unconditional, and there is nothing more a parent wants to see than their children being the happiest. These are the people who sacrifice all to raise you, and people are forever indebted to their parents. Which is why when building relationships one should be conscientious of what their family expects of them.

However, choosing someone to spend the rest of your life with is a serious choice. This is someone who you will spend your life with, even after your parents are gone. This is someone whom you will spend every day with, not your parents. This is someone you ought to want to raise kids with. This is someone you will be introducing to everyone as your spouse. This is someone who will be the key person in your life after marriage. This someone definitely ought to be someone you want to be with, and I feel a person's input counts. Secondly, love is not an emotion we as humans are completely in control of, We never know whom we will fall in love.

Despite that I do not condone irresponsible actions or forgetting the important people in one's lives for the sake of love. I firmly believe that parents have unconditional love and want the best for their children. The best thing to do is to face the challenge head on and express your intent to your parents and focus into winning them over.

Before doing something hasty like eloping, remember that parents want the very best for you. If they are still sternly opposing - do they genuinely have a good reason. Could this person you love be actually wrong for you. Are you willing and ready to take the risk and bear its consequences. If they have no good reason other than stubbornness and conformism - people have a choice to make.

Which is why parents also need to sometimes take a step back and into their children's shoes. Is the person your child loves genuinely not suitable, or are you caught in a stubborn mindset. If this person is a good person, someone ready for marriage and capable of fulfilling all duties and responsibilities - is there good reason to oppose it. More importantly - is opposing the marriage worth breaking your child's heart. The whole question of rebellion or betrayal is moot if every human being opens their hearts a little with compassion.

In my honest opinion estrangement is a better choice than resentment. Love and relationships still exist subtly in estrangement. Only bitterness sustains in resentment. Estrangement can be reconciled. Resentment can never be. Times change, people change and past mistakes can be forgiven and forgotten. Resentment grows deeper and deeper each day.

I feel it is better to take the risk even if you may end up being hurt - because you will know that it was not right, it was not meant to be. Its always better than living a life of what ifs, and resentment towards people that they denied you your what ifs. Remember, if your heart is broken - you will always resent the person who broke it - even if it was you or your parents. Its a cardinal rule of the heart's irrationalities - it always resents the people who break it - no matter how much it loves them.

There are many people who will marry a person of their parents choice and live a happy loving married life, genuinely loving their spouse. However, what a lot of happily married couples never reveal is the burden of what ifs, the regrets and resentments that leave a sense of perpetual emptiness. People ought to know and be prepared that its a lot more compromise than they bargained for, and marriage becomes more about companionship love than passionate romantic love.

One thing I have to add is that if people feel they can never betray their parents and will only marry who their parents deem fit - have no right to fall in love outside marriage. And if they do they ought not to act upon it. There is nothing worse and low than making someone fall in love with you, pretending to be there - when ultimately when faced with the real test you will chicken out and leave them stranded. If a person cannot take accountability for their own relationships - they ought not to do it.

When it comes to arranged or love marriages, I am ambivalent. Its a matter of choice and people will do what they feel comfortable with. Some people believe in love and want to find their love, some people believe that marriage works best when parents choose the right one.

My only caveat with arranged marriage on a personal level is that I find that the cheapest and disgusting thing I could do in my life is sleep with someone I am not in love with or care about. I'm not judgmental when it comes to sex, but when it comes to myself that is something i cannot do. Unless I feel I am genuinely in love with the person, it will be all platonic. The only caveat with all that is I'm too lazy to find love on my own either.



And I feel there is no need for anyone to state their point or argue on this issue anymore since YOU SAID IT ALL.

Very well saidClap @Bolded I fully agree to youClap

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Posted: 18 October 2009 at 4:57am | IP Logged
RTH seems you said out the heart of most people there!! at least you said out my thought in last para especially!

Sad thing is in reality it's pretty hard to convince people about tht

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