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Should america forget the 9/11??? (Page 18)

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return_to_hades

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Posted: 12 September 2009 at 10:11am | IP Logged



Edited by return_to_hades - 12 September 2009 at 10:31am

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chal_phek_mat

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Posted: 12 September 2009 at 12:36pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades

Reading this thread a lot of people watched movies like New York and get a very negative impression of United States. New York is a realistic movie, and yes the secret services did unethically detain and torture innocent civilians by profiling.

However, you cannot take one solitary movie and perceive an entire nation and its people. You cannot judge every government agency and agent in the states because of one movie. Remember the furore that everyone will think that India is a slum based on Slumdog Millionaire. A more rational individual will know that America is not evil because of some people in a movie.

Movies like Boys Don't Cry and Laramie Project show small town Americans and Christians as cruel homophobes. And unfortunately many people have prejudices against the hartland smalltowners and conservative Christians because of the movie. But its far from the truth, many of them are extremely religious but peaceful and friendly people.

We have to always remember every German was not a Nazi and even amidst the Nazi's, a few officers like Claus Von Stauffenberg had a sense of trying to do the right thing.

When movies project a negative event, it is to make people aware. So that people learn that there are parts of the system that are broken. So that we understand there need to be changes made in the way we think and act as human beings. People need to take accountability to set things right. American people are demanding their government to audit secret services and ensure that those who misused authority are punished and that the innocent civilians be compensated. American people are trying to get hate crimes legislations passed so that people are not brutalized for being of a different race, religion, nationality or sexual orientation.

The movies are not intended for people to develop prejudices against an entire nation or religion because of a few incidents. Americans are wrong for stereotyping many Muslims and treating everyone of them as a terrorist. At the same time Muslims also have to accept that they are wrong in judging or hating America the whole nation.

Both sides have to grow up and step up to the job of breaking the barriers and differences, and not twiddling thumbs or pointing angry fingers.
Generally I dont beleive that you need to experience something to talk about it, but for terrorism I have observed by personal experience and experiences of people around me
1. If you view some terrorist event in news you have one opinion about it, you get angry you scream but move onto something the next day
2. If you hear about a terrorist event in a place you have visited you have another opinion you reminisce about the place and give gaalis to the people, but forget about it the next news cycle
3. If you hear about a terrorist event and have heard a first hand account you have a 3rd opinion, you carry that for some time, but in a month or two you lose the zing for it
4. If you witness it first hand you have a 4th opinion, You want revenge, but you have a detached feeling for it
5. If you personally feel it, you get a completely different feeling about it, you are petrified at first, but you carry the scar for life and want something to be done about it seriously not the way anyone of the above feel about it, it doesnt matter whether you felt it in Karachi or Mumbai or NYC or Cairo.
 
 
I fail to understand how can one make a movie feeling about it, How in the world can a movie director or producer ever depict any of this? And even if by some fluke you do, you need a Om Puri or Naseer or atleast a Anupam Kher to portray those feelings. Seriously John "Call me wooden actor" Abraham. Katrina "Look I am awkardly pretty" Kaif and Nitin "My dad was a singer" Mukesh going to portray any of those emotions? The 9/11 attackers had better acting skills as was displayed on the day. It is like making Don with SRK, Kareena in it, oops sorryLOL!!!!
 


Edited by chal_phek_mat - 12 September 2009 at 1:25pm

return_to_hades

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Posted: 12 September 2009 at 1:59pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by chal_phek_mat

Generally I dont beleive that you need to experience something to talk about it, but for terrorism I have observed by personal experience and experiences of people around me
1. If you view some terrorist event in news you have one opinion about it, you get angry you scream but move onto something the next day
2. If you hear about a terrorist event in a place you have visited you have another opinion you reminisce about the place and give gaalis to the people, but forget about it the next news cycle
3. If you hear about a terrorist event and have heard a first hand account you have a 3rd opinion, you carry that for some time, but in a month or two you lose the zing for it
4. If you witness it first hand you have a 4th opinion, You want revenge, but you have a detached feeling for it
5. If you personally feel it, you get a completely different feeling about it, you are petrified at first, but you carry the scar for life and want something to be done about it seriously not the way anyone of the above feel about it, it doesnt matter whether you felt it in Karachi or Mumbai or NYC or Cairo.

I have said in my previous posts, anyone who has lost someone on 09/11 or even witnessed the situation will never ever be able to overcome the imagery and the scarring. Even people who just missed their train, or postponed a vacation to NYC and were not there at all carry that surreal pain through their life. Even if someone wishes to such pain is hard to forget and I agree it is irrelevent if its was NYC or any other city. Terrorism is a serious issue and I wholeheartedly agree with the 'war on terrorism',
 
A friend of mine shot live the pictures of people jumping out the window from 70+ floors, Another collegue of mind watched a plane go over the top of his head and  hit a bldg. I have seen the horror on his face, I have seen the expressions change of my Pakistani friend after the first plane hit and after he caught the breath after running after the second plane hit.
 
I fail to understand how can one make a movie feeling about it, How in the world can a movie director or producer ever depict any of this?

Some situations will never be able to be truly captured, and sometime attempting it seems almost like a mockery. However, many people will try because they have something they want to share. Of course some people do want to capitalize on tragedy, which is disgusting. Some people do have relevant emotions and thoughts they wish to share, and should be able to do so. There are some lesser known documentaries and independent videos made by various people including witnesses and victims, showing various emotions from anger and hate, to compassion and forgiveness, to political questioning. Many are quite well made.

And even if by some fluke you do, you need a Om Puri or Naseer or atleast a Anupam Kher to portray those feelings. Seriously John "Call me wooden actor" Abraham. Katrina "Look I am awkardly pretty" Kaif and Nitin "My dad was a singer" Mukesh going to portray any of those emotions? The 9/11 attackers had better acting skills as was displayed on the day. It is like making Don with SRK, Kareena in it, oops sorryLOL!!!!

I have not seen New York the movie. However, as far as my understanding goes New York is more about post 09/11 profiling than about the actual events. The quality of the acting and portrayal is not something I can comment on.
 
Secondly There is harassment, there is torture and there is death that extends over a some period of time, how in the world can you put any of these in the same statement?

You just did.
IMHO torture is worse than death. There is nothing fair in harassing an individual because someone else died in a tragedy. Torturing someone is worse. I want to qualify, that I am talking of innocents here, not people guilty of causing the death. Especially those guilty of causing death through heinous and cruel acts.

 
You talk about profiling, well the profile is very straight, except for the assaination of Rajiv Gandhi, all terror attacks or attackers(in last 20 years) on foreign soil have some link to Pakistan. If you pass through an airport and you have a stamp of some particular countries, you are going to raise suspicions.It is simple deduction. I have a few of those stamps. I have been searched a few many times while passing through airport security. I think I can say for sure I have enough to cry racism/profiling here.Another profile is you act/talk/deal suspiciously you will be pulled up, no matter what your skin color is. I was on a flight once and a 70 year old white grandma travelling with her grandkids back to NY from Florida was pulled up and kept for an hour, but I wasnt. She was irritated, but is she going to cry racism/harrasment?

Security personnel have some sort of profiling to do. And yes it is more natural and logical to profile some people more than others. I have pointed out to others that they are incorrect in assuming that only Muslims are profiled. There have been several non Muslim Americans and foreigners searched, arrested etc for suspicious travel, behavior and anti-national behavior.

However, there are times when profiling crosses the line. We also expect security to have some more sense of common sense and intellect. Like it ought not to take an hour to determine if a grandma is a threat or not. Of course grandma could be a terrorist its very possible, but I personally expect security to have a better more efficient sense of going about things. I personally have some ridiculous things being done in the name of security like juice sippies being snatched from the hands of bawling toddlers.

Also a person knows when you are being profiled and not. I've traveled a lot post 09/11. I've been through security in various American and foreign airports. Even the rabid French and Charles De Gaulle were dealable when I had to go through security. However, in my personal experience Heathrow and NewArk are very racist, rude in their profiling and security. When I was at Heathrow, in all three security lines i saw only Subcontinental people being pulled aside. Before boarding our flight to Chicago all the Subcontienental looking people on the flight were pulled aside and questioned before being allowed to board. [I have to say, this was my first and only time at Heathrow] I used to think O'Hare was bad, but O'Hare is heaven compared to these others. Actually even having driven across the USA through the southern states and the bible belt, I will say I have experienced less racism and profiling in some small towns compared to Heathrow and Newark. Of course its pureley a personal opinon and not 100% fact based. But I do believe there is a problem that needs to be fixed.

 
About torture, well the self confessed mastermind of 9/11 was tortured, what would you prefer to do with him? keep in in a mandir and do a Aarti morning/evening for the good work he did? Would you prefer giving him a regular trial put him on a stand and explain why he thinks more and more people should be killed and inciting more of them on live television to those who already think all of their fellow brothers/sisters are pulled up everyday in America and brutalized?

My main concern is innocent civilians who have have become victims. I personally subscribe to the school of thought that it is worse to accuse an innocent. I am against systems like extraordinary rendition and suspension of basic principles like the writ of habeus corpus. Many innocent civilians have been arrested, detained and tortured and that is a serious issue.

As for guilty terrorists. I do not think I have stated anything to condone terror or applauded their achievements. I simply do not believe in the justice of torture. Torture is a double edged sword that can lead to truths as well as frustrated untrue confessions.

And yes I firmly believe in fair trials. I believe that unlike barbarians and terrorists, civilized democracies have a standard of humanity and fairness to stick by. And yes, I believe even the terrorist deserves a fair and full trial. And yes if the terrorist shamelessly wants to explain to people why they killed people and want to kill more people, and incite brainless zombies into killing more people then so be it. I'm sure the prosecuting lawyers are capable enough to make a good case, and have compassionate opening and closing arguments that show the heinous face of terrorism and expose the terrorsts for the beasts they are. I also believe that through a trial people can see that despite facing the worst crimes on humanity, that the United States and western world can still be fair and compassionate and not stoop to the levels of their enemies.

Yes, I am a pacifist and have no qualms owning up to it.

 
Another thing I frankly am surprised of desis( that include everyone in the subcontinent) complain about police/official harrasment. It is just like someone from Mumbai complaining about humidity in Florida. What happens in the jails of the subcontient is much more than what happened in any of these circumstances, I agree CIA was stupid why wouldnt you let the suspects sit in the jails of Pakistan/Afghanistan and just bribe the cops to get the info?

Honestly, I too am surprised when desis complain of torture in American courts. Desi prisons do bad even for petty crimes. In my life in Bombay, I have seen angry mobs beat up a hungry beggar for stealing food and felt it was justified. As a matter of fact the cops in the United States are more astutely aware of civil rights that the average cop in some desi countries.

Still harassment is wrong and people should stand up against harassment equivalently. People ought to expect the same standard of integrity of all cops and agents. I do not have a problem with anyone desi or not who is against harassment as long as they do not have double standards.

 
G.W Bush came out and said right after 9/11, some people are going to feel the pain and everyone nodded their heads in unison. And now 8 years after the fact when people complain about that. If memory serves me well all through the world the only people who disagreed with him were some lawyers from ACLU for others is classic #1 and #2 up there

I agree with the war on terror. I even agree that unfortunately there might be collateral damage. But in 8 years nothing has been done right. In 8 years the country has been deceived and lied to and we have a right to complain. In 8 years we have not caught the main people behind it. We fought a war in Iraq when we should have focused in Afghanistan. We fought a war in Iraq while Al-Qaeda and Taliban built a stronghold in Pakistan. We fought a war in Iraq when religious extremism was sweeping across Pakistan and seeping into other nations. We wasted millions of dollars in a useless war, profiling and arresting and detaining innocent civilians and lesser criminals while the terror network grew stronger in Afghanistan and Pakistan. We detained and tortured so many people yet were not able to locate any of the higher ups in Al-Qaeda. George Bush failed miserably in his promise to the American people and the world and we have the right to criticize and question him and his regime.


CPM looks like you edited your post. Please let me know if you want me to edit my response too. I will be glad to do so. Smile


Edited by return_to_hades - 12 September 2009 at 2:00pm

hindu4lyf

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Posted: 12 September 2009 at 2:14pm | IP Logged
"I fail to understand how can one make a movie feeling about it, How in the world can a movie director or producer ever depict any of this? And even if by some fluke you do, you need a Om Puri or Naseer or atleast a Anupam Kher to portray those feelings. Seriously John "Call me wooden actor" Abraham. Katrina "Look I am awkardly pretty" Kaif and Nitin "My dad was a singer" Mukesh going to portray any of those emotions? The 9/11 attackers had better acting skills as was displayed on the day. It is like making Don with SRK, Kareena in it, oops sorryLOL!!!!"
 
Dude you are soo funnyy! =))
As much as i love and adore John Abraham, he was probably not the best for the job yet he did not suck. The role just demanded someone a lil more experienced maybe. Katrina was a flop in the movie though. She was obviously just there for the looks and NNM was smiling for most of the film? :S Esp. when he was screaming in the detention centre-how bloody fake did that look eh? :S
 
Anyway, the concept and the so-called 'horror' is what made the movie a hit. It got people talking which is why it was a success. The only problem becomes when people take movies like that literally and believe it word for word. I think only the americans have managed to make a very good documentary/short film on 9/11.


Edited by hindu4lyf - 12 September 2009 at 2:55pm

*Woh Ajnabee*

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Posted: 12 September 2009 at 2:37pm | IP Logged
I don't understand why we expect documentary type movies from Bollywood anyways. The movie just had 9/11 as a backdrop, it in no way was about the issue or what followed. They could just as easily have taken out 9/11 and created a movie on just plain ol' terrorism. The acting was mediocre, nothing exceptional. John Abraham was there to prove that he can do more than ride a bike on screen, Katrina Kaif was there to prove that she can supposedly look good without caking her face up with tons of make-up, and Neil Nitin Mukesh was there for losers like me who watched the movie to see what kind of actor he was. The climax of the movie was oh-so-Bollywood.

On the other hand, there was a Pakistani movie that came out on the issue, called Khuda Ke Liye. The movie was more of a documentary, I thought, but I think it did a good job of presenting not only the effects of 9/11 in the US, but also in Pakistan and similarly in other nations. Although the movie may have been portrayed at high extremes, I think it was a good watch, exceptionally gruesome at some points, but a better potrayal of the issue at hand.

hindu4lyf

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Posted: 12 September 2009 at 2:54pm | IP Logged
WA: Heard a lot about the movie but never really got a chance to see it. It did pretty well overseas from what I hear. (atleast in the UK anyway =\)
Ah man, I love that song in the movie. I forgot the words but i've got the tune stuck in my head.

*Woh Ajnabee*

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Posted: 12 September 2009 at 3:22pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by hindu4lyf

WA: Heard a lot about the movie but never really got a chance to see it. It did pretty well overseas from what I hear. (atleast in the UK anyway =\)
Ah man, I love that song in the movie. I forgot the words but i've got the tune stuck in my head.


Yeah, the movie was good, it was definitely worth a watch. I think it did better overseas due to the same controversy that surrounded Slumdog Millionaire, people don't like being shown reality sometims. Blah, blah, blah.

Umm, I don't remember any of the songs as well, but the movie's soundtrack also did quite well.

New York has a pretty nice soundtrack as well, I like! Especially Tune Jo Na Kaha, Mohit Chauhan is phenomenal! Mere Sang is also good, as well as Hai Junoon.

Now that I think about it, the movie would've done so much better if they just made it the average Bollywood love triangle and left it at that. LOL

jagdu

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Posted: 13 September 2009 at 12:40am | IP Logged
The world must never forget 9/11 India must never forget it's 26/11.
Osama Bin Laden must be brought to book, as well as Mullah Omar.
Pakistan's laws favor their lawless. Their 70 terrorists must face the hague.
Till then the world must not rest.
 

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