Why is Feminist a negative word? - Page 2

Originally posted by: souro

Edited by souro - 14 years ago

Originally posted by: chal_phek_mat

Well it isnt a negative word(but so isnt hypocrite😉)

 

Feminists want equal rights, but they also want women to be preferentially b'cos they have been ill-treated for centuries.

 

Again this has nothing to do with a particular gender, there have been men who are feminists and there are women who are feminists

 

I can see why some feel it is a negative word b'cos most people hate using someone else's misfortune to further oneself as a bad thing

Originally posted by: souro

and yes women have proved that they r more competent by handling house,family, society, and work equally well. but its the fragile ego of men which still asks them to prove themselves more.🤢
Edited by angelic_devil - 14 years ago

Originally posted by: return_to_hades

Just like racist and misogynist are negative words.

Feminism started out as a positive concept. In the past women were considered and treated as second class citizens. The feminist movement began in order to emancipate women into society as equal. Secure voting rights, employments rights, break down negative stereotypes.

The problem is that some people have gone overboard in the process. Instead of equality they want privileges and special treatment. They expect compensation for past wrongs. They take advantage of situations to manipulate things in their way. Many behave in a way that women are better than men.

While many overboard women are at fault, the issue is compounded by the fragile egoes of men. Women are less dependent on men. They have no problems leaving men if they feel they are incompatible. Men who are socially conditioned to believe women always depend on their men or stick by their men etc, feel that this sense of independence means that they hate men. People who are used to seeing women in their cultures, families be on the shier quiet or submissive side feel that frank and straightforward women are too opinionated for their own good.

So with the combination of both feminist is negative.

I'm an omniist. I don't discriminate. I hate everybody equally. Men and Women.

Edited by sandy14 - 14 years ago

Originally posted by: angelic_devil

asking for special privileges is justified when there are no equal opportunities. as sooon as this society can provide equal status to women they wont be essential.
If special privileges is justified, then the feminist should not crib about men having received special privileges for ages. That too should be considered justified ain't it.

doing multiple things equally good is being more competent than men. if men can do one job in a specified time with this much quality and a women does that along with few more things giving the same quality then y should they not be considered more competent. and i disagree to ur saying here that competency is always related to something.
Actually I wanted to write competency is always relative to something and somebody. Because there can be n niumber of people more competent than you and n number of people less competent than you in a given job. And the n will keep on changing with the job in question.
Anyways, now you're assuming things. You're assuming that all women can multitask whereas no man can do it. You're also assuming that women always multitask and at the same time produce better quality than men even if the men in question were performing only that single task at that given time.

agreeing and providing equal opportunity are two different things. just saying that women should have equal opportunities and putting that in use are two different things. everyone says women have equal opportunities but that is not the real scenario. in actual world women have to put double triple the efforts put by men to survive.
That is what we hear and that is what may have happened 50 years ago when women first tried to break into primarily male dominated jobs. Honestly, nowadays where do you see people talking about equality and asking women to put more effort than men??

no the problem arises when females are more deserving and they r not given the opportunity bcoz they r females. equal opportunities is actually only on paper and in the minds of men.
Really?? And where is that happening?? Are those men who speak of equality also acting in a discriminating manner??

ya in the name of proving they r made to put in much much more efforts than men can ever put in. hell all need to prove it y only women men too need to prove it. u discriminate in the name of gender?
And who said that men don't have to prove?? Ain't it quite absurd to believe that men get jobs just like that and only women are required to prove their merit.

quota reservation is justified bcoz there are very less women who get the opportuniy to explore their talent in the first place. tell me how much percentage of women r actually educated? quota reservation was given the backward classes bcoz of prejudice among people which is the same with women. so to provide them equal status they need be provided reservation or change the mindset of people if u can.
Why don't you tell me how much per cent of women are actually educated and how much is the difference with the male literacy? If there are still families where females are not receiving education whereas males are it's usually either because the family is too poor to support everyone's education and they prefer to educate the male child as the female child will get married and go to another family or it is because they still don't really believe in equality and everything. Neither of the two causes can be solved with reservation policy. One is a socio-economic problem where the family doesn't have enough money and customs of our society make them to act in a particular way. Another is a problem arising from lack of educatiion and knowledge. Tell me which of these problems are going to go away because of reservation??

oh y is that women always have to prove they deserve this they deserve that especially when it comes to education and job?
Stop being so dramatic. You should know very well even men have to prove their ability before getting a job.

their qualifications r seen more minutely than that of men? y is it that they have to always work harder than needed just bcoz some people r skeptical abt their competence?
Instead of just mentioning some well rehearsed lines put down by those ultra feminists, please come up with something to prove them.

see this is what i call discrimination.how will the society change when people still point blank refuse to acknowledge their contribution towards society? and who will change the society? its us to change it. when we only dont consider women competent and all the time keep grilling them in the name of proving their worth then how will the thinking change?
If someone refuses to acknowledge women's contribution towards society then it is because of lack of proper education. But if someone grills a woman before giving her something then he is doing a wise thing and he obviously grilled the guy in same way.
 
as i said it would be rights till the time they get equal treatment from society.
And I've already said that if privileges is correct then the privileges men enjoyed also becomes correct. How can you say that people shouldn't be discriminated based on gender and then ask for privileges when by doing so you are essentially asking to overlook merit in favour of gender.

and yes women have proved that they r more competent by handling house,family, society, and work equally well. but its the fragile ego of men which still asks them to prove themselves more.🤢
Believe whatever you want to believe, no one can force you to change your way of thinking.

Edited by souro - 14 years ago

ok.. Feminism started when "some" women thought they had to get equal footing with the men on most of the things which were till then male-dominated...........Now some women thought that this was a way to get back to men in general.... which is one of the negative aspects prevalent....Now, meanwhile the loonies in the US were cooking some crap about anti-stereo-typing.. which the feminists thought could augur well for their activities.. All in all women are in a cultural hotch-potch where they want to sit next to the man in the car but would like for the man to open the door for them (equality loses to chivalry!!!)... So there goes feminism in a bit of a mess...... today its nothing but male bashing that's why the negative connotation.. ...

Yeah why ask for privilleges when might is right ? women just need to realise their power . After all , its the hand that rocks the cradle that rules the world :)

Originally posted by: souro

Edited by angelic_devil - 14 years ago

Originally posted by: angelic_devil

Oh ya that's true and they still do have more privileges but that is at the expense of women which are not justified. And they don't even deserve it. They did not earn it either. It's just a stupid mindset of people since ages and still going on.

First you said that privileges is justified. Now you're saying privileges are not justified. Your support for privileges seems to change with the gender.

But here we are not comparing men and women on equal footing right? We are comparing them  keeping in mind their gender. What I mean to say over here is, we are not comparing one job done by the 2 genders but we r comparing the competencies/abilities of the two genders in general. What their contributions r towards the society.

I'm confused now. We're not comparing men and women on equal footing... what do you mean by that?? I was actually comparing between what men and women can do given equal opportunities. IMO, both can contribute equally to the society, in their own unique ways.

Yes this is the general observation.

General observation based on what?? Your own male and female lab rats??

U r only asking them to prove themselves before asking for privileges which I call as their right.

No, I'm saying don't ask for privileges at all. Everyone deserves equality. Beyond that every decision should be based on merit. If you have equality what do you need privileges for?? And if you ask for privileges then how can you call it equal treatment??

Today also there is a lot of prejudice going on. Its is easier for men to get a job than women. At the lower level I would say no not much difference it would make. but when it comes to higher posts and giving bigger responsibilities all the politics start.

As if women don't involve themselves in office politics. This is a lame excuse to say women deserve reservation or preferential treatment. A better way is to educate children from a very young age that everyone deserves an equal chance and the most deserving should be chosen based on merit.

Then now also in a family if u has a girl and a boy, parents will spend more on the guy's education than the girl's. Still we have jobs where girls r given responsibilities more of the kind where they have to just smile and do nothing great. It is still very rare to see women at the top level. Tell me how many female PM and presidents do we have in this world? How many business women? And the ones who r had to really work harder than men to prove their worth.
And the most important thing what is the percentage of educated women in india?

If u can ignore it u can.

How many women voters do you have in countries where there is equal rights for women?? About 50% ain't it. In that case why can't the women themselves take the lead and try to get themselves elected. If you look at European countries many of them have close to 50% women in the parliament. If that is not happening in India, ain't the women also responsible in some way for not taking any initiative. Why do you need privileges to take an initiative??

yes  women do need to prove them selves and things r made tough for them at the higher level, and certain jobs as well. if u talk abt jobs like receptionist, nurses and all those then ya i agree its easy for women. but then they r really not lucrative right.

You are talking about things made tougher for women. Well while recruitment at our college I didn't notice any major differences between how companies selected a male or a female candidate. What you're talking about was more about what happened half a century ago not now.

not even half of the population of women in India r educated.

A li'l over 50% actually. But what about urban areas. It is more or less evenly distributed. In rural areas the illiteracy is due to so many other factors, none of which will get solved by reservation.

Even if people have money they don't spend it on their education. They preserve it for their dowry.

so u accept that there r such families and there is still discrimination. So it nullifies all your arguments that women ask for privileges as they r not even equal till now so how can they ask for privileges?

And how exactly does it nullify my argument. I'm saying that the areas where discrimination in families still exist it is because of reasons which is either socio-economic in nature or a lack of proper knowledge. Which IMO can't be solved by preferential treatment. Many male child also don't get education because of socio-economic reasons. Should we forget about that and only concentrate on educating the female child?? Is that your idea of equality?? IMO, the aim should be to educate everyone, irrespective of gender, class, colour, etc. That is equality. Once they are educated, let them compete for admission in their desired field of study or for their desired job. Once you place everyone on a level playing field there won't be any need to give any kind of privileges.

and which of this is their fault? So y should they suffer for that. If we cannot change the mindset and provide these people education then women should be made self reliant and not dependent on these sort of people.

Wait a second don't be too hasty in exonerating the women totally. It wasn't as if they didn't play any role in creating all this mess. But that is what happened earlier. If we concentrate on improving the condition of today's generation then yes the best way is to make them self reliant and independent. And the ideal way to achieve that is to provide education to all and create equal opportunities for everyone. Having reservation and privileges actually proves to be counter-productive. It gives rise to crutch mentality instead of self reliance. We had a short sighted diplomat in B.R.Ambedkar who in his haste in copy pasting materials from every foreign constitution that he could lay his hands on have already made that mistake and we all realise it, but it is beyond my understanding why you want the same mistake to take place again.

u only said women should first prove that they deserve their capability before asking.

Wait a second..." women should first prove that they deserve their capability before asking"... I didn't write such a weird sentence. Either you didn't understand me or I'm not understanding you. I'm saying that women shouldn't ask for privileges at all... get it now?? 'at all' like never ever. Instead they should achieve what they deserve by proving their merit like everyone else.

oh this is general knowledge, but we choose to close our eyes for our convenience then it cannot be helped. And this is a fact. People do have this kind of thinking.

Sorry but I don't think it is general knowledge stuff and I don't agree that nowadays qualification of women are scrutinised more minutely than men or they are asked to work more to prove themselves.

then y is it that there r very less female professionals at the higher level and more at the lower level. Y r they not given bigger responsibilities? And there r many educated people like many on this forums only who do not acknowledge contribution of women towards society. See for IIT and IIM only how many girls actually do get admission there? Actually how many appear at the entrance exam?

Just because there is less female presence at the top even now doesn't mean it's a male conspiracy. Sometimes it happens because women opt out of longer working hours and moving around too much.

And as far as appearing for entrance exams are concerned, ain't it the responsibility of the female students to appear for such exams?? Why do you want to make men a scapegoat for that too??

what u call privileges is rights for me as they will be privileges only after both have equal status in society and full freedom to do what they want without being asked to prove themselves.

If you ask merit to be overlooked in favour of gender then by default it becomes a privilege. Under no circumstances can you or anyone else, call that as a 'right'.

I am not asking anyone to change my thinking. But then fact is a fact.you can close your eyes.😊
Your facts are in the speeches of ultra feminists, regarding issues that were relevant 50 years ago. I'm asking for proof regarding two of your claims. Show me which employer now asks for more qualification from a woman compared to a man for the same job; and which employer at present expects women to work harder than men.

Originally posted by: souro