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ShivangBuch

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ShivangBuch

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Posted: 08 February 2012 at 6:34am | IP Logged
Originally posted by ShivangBuch

Originally posted by .Vrish.

Shivang

Check out the first page of this thread, where Varaali laid out the comparitive ages of Krishna & the Pandavas, and what either was doing in parallel before their roads converged @ Kampiliya.


Thank you Vrish. My answers all in red. 

Oops! So the same doubt has already been raised over here! Sorry I didn't know that. But since in earlier case of Paundrak-Shrungalav question, you shifted my query here from MM forum game thread and this time you posted your game question straight away without continuing any point of discussion on the previous question (of presence of strange people in Draupadi swayamvar) in that thread, I thought you were giving me indirect hint of asking that question in doubts thread again so I did. Actually I usually don't initiate discussions or doubts because despite they being my doubts, I am never that keen or eager to know the answer of such factual events in mind immediately unless it comes naturally in the logical flow of some thread like it happened in the game thread. I read that post of the above link on the first page but couldn't get the exact relative ages at the time of Draupadi swayamvar. I could only find in that that the age of Krishna and Pandavas must be around 20 when they completed their education. It seems that you haven't seen the link of Dr Patnaik's research which I have posted. That provides complete timeline of Yudhishthir's life though I would like to know the way he must have made that research analysis.


To first answer the question about Abhimanyu's generation - Uttar, Sankha, Pradhyumna, et al, I think that if they were there, they were there as kids, not as prospective suitors.  
Yes. Exactly that is what I believe and hope to be and wanted support to my opinion but the translation is very strange.

Pradhyumna I think was born probably after the Syamantaka episodes and Krishna's marriages w/ Satyabhama & Jambavati.  Since he didn't meet his parents for 12 years, I think that that would have been his age when he returned to them, and had Mayavati (Rati) as his wife.  If that was the case, it's very unlikely that Anirudha could have been there, unless Pradhyumna happened to have had Anirudha from Mayavati, rather than Rukmavati (which is what SB maintains. Incidentally, does HV too agree that Anirudha was son of Rukmavati & Vajra of Rochana?)  Also, if Krishna's other sons, like Samba & Charudeshna were there, it seems to conflict w/ Devi Bhagvatam, where Krishna, after the abduction of Pradhyumna, went to the heavens to ask for 10 sons for each of his wives in order to drown their sorrows.  But @ the time Draupadi married, Krishna had only his first 3 wives - Kalindhi and everyone beyond was married @ the time Yudhisthir & Draupadi were king & queen of Indraprastha.  On Subhadra, Krishna would have been much older than her - after all, she was seemingly born after Vasudeva's release, to Rohini.
OK. I don't know much details about Krishna's other marriages and Krishna's sons' stories. In Pradhyumn's case, I think the serial SK has shown that soon after his kidnapping (when he was just a couple of years old), he was straight made young by mayavi vidhya so had no idea about the number of years for which he was away from Krishna. Subhadra had to be very very much younger than Krishna no doubt about it. I wanted to know the exact age difference.

About Matsya, when Arjun fought the Kauravas alongside Uttar, he at that time told Arjun that he was a mere boy, so put his age @ somewhere around 16 - the same as Abhimanyu's?  I'm ignoring the BRC account that he was younger to Uttara, b'cos if Abhimanyu was 16, Uttara was maybe 14, and Uttar, @ 13 or less, wouldn't have been a compatant in that case (hey, Vrishaketu wasn't a combatant, and his age was somewhat younger to Abhimanyu & Draupadi's sons).  Uttar was the youngest of Virata's sons - Sveta, who died fighting Bheeshma to avenge Uttar's death, was the 2nd, and Shankha, who was killed by Drona cruelly when he was taking his father away who was fleeing from Drona, was the eldest, and probably the yuvraj.  Incidentally, while there were survivors of the rulers in other kingdoms - like Dhrishtaketu's brother became ruler of Chedi, Jarasandha's grandson became ruler of Magadha, et al, there is nothing about any survivors from Matsya.  In the case of Panchala, Drona & Ashwatthama had wiped out everyone.
Very very informative paragraph. That's what I like about you very much. But then this contradicts with KMG paragraph. Abhimanyu wasn't born during Draupadi swayamvar and Uttar-Shankh were there present (even if as just kids) so they must be far elder than Abhimanyu.


Bhagadutta being present in Draupadi's swayamvara seems really out of place.  After all, after this marriage, Yudhisthir & Draupadi became rulers of Indraprastha, and Arjun, while in the company of Krishna, helped him marry Kalindhi and by some accounts Bhadra or Mitravindya, and both Bhima & Arjun were there @ Lakshmanaa's swayamvar.  Krishna's marriage to the next 16,100 wives happened after that, meaning Narakasura was still alive, and Bhagadatta was a nobody - maybe he was the yuvraj of Pragjyotisha.  Narakasura's women were after all junior in stature to Krishna's principle 8 wives.
That's also the fact mentioned in KMG translation that he was there in swayamvar. Yes you are right but is there any reason to believe that Krishna's marriage to all his prime 8 wives had to be before other 16,100 asur wives or captives rescued (rather than princesses of major kingdoms)? You didn't answer my question in the game thread why he sided Kauravas.

On Paundrak, I had no idea about the timeline in which he was killed.  The section above suggests that he was there @ Draupadi's swayamvar, which would mean that he'd probably have been killed by Krishna after the death of Jarasandha, while the Pandavas were busy consolidating their empire.  IIRC, Bhima went South, Nakul & Sahadev went West & North (forget which order) and Arjun went East, so Arjun would either have come into conflict w/ him, or gotten a welcome similar to what Sishupala gave Bhima.  Do you have handy what MB says about the campaigns that the Pandavas carried out following the death of Jarasandha, and b4 the death of Sishupala?  In the ACK, it was given that Paundrak fought alongside Jarasandha against Balarama during Rukmini's abduction, but it was unclear what the source of that was, although the whole story in the ACK seemed consistent w/ SB.
I have checked this in KMG just before Rajsuya yagna and some strange fact about geography is noticed.

Arjun's age - the way you are putting it - seems inflated, since the MB is pretty plain that Drona was in his 80s during that war.  I would think the Pandavas would have been in their late 60s - after all, if they were something like in their 20s when they married Draupadi, then Yushisthir ruled Indraprastha for 36 years, then there was the 13 years of exile.  After the war, they lived for 36 years, so they died in their low 100s - similar to Krishna.
No no. I am not putting it actually. I am asking. It is there in detail in that Dr Patnaik link. Right or wrong. You will enjoy reading that entire systematic chronological study if you didn't come across already before. See carefully the names of all Vedic calendar years and also the point that Rajsuya yagna was Shashtipurty year of Pandu's death (Completion of 1 entire cycle of 60 Vedic calendar years and repeat of same year). And Krishna's age was 125 years when he left the earth is very very commonly known by people. And it is not illogical actually because Pandavas must have taken many years to establish their supremacy upto Rajsuya yagn year including 12 years of Arjun's praayashchitta yaatra. But again it's a very big puzzle because Drona's age in 80s was also the fact I read somewhere in KMG only in my dark memory.

Incidentally, MB tends to contradict itself in a few places.  For instance, in Udyog Parva, it describes Balarama as being disapproving of the war, and refusing to support either side.  But in Shalya Parva, when Balarama appears @ the pond where Bhima & Duryodhan were to have their final encounter,  the story segways into all the pilgrimages that Balarama did w/ everywhere, and there, it was also mentioned that Balarama wanted Krishna & the family to support the Kauravas, Shocked but Krishna would have none of it.  That bit actually shocked me - while Balarama was known to have a weakness for Duryodhan, I'd have thought that had he joined the war, he'd have joined on the Pandava side just so that he could have gotten to test Duryodhan.
Yes. I agree about these internal contradiction possibilities. I can check about Balram also in a day or two at both places what exactly he said.


I know - for the time being, everything I wrote above is from memory - I don't currently have KMG open, and it does take some time to dig that up.


Edited by ShivangBuch - 08 February 2012 at 8:33am

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.Vrish.varaali

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 08 February 2012 at 10:59am | IP Logged
On why the kingdoms who supported the Kauravas did what they did, it is instructive to read about the conquests Karna did after the humiliation of the Kauravas @ the hands of the Gandharvas.  It discusses all the kingdoms that he subjugated and the ones that just had a friendship w/ him.  Bhagadatta fell in the latter category - he wasn't defeated by Karna, IIRC, but he did become an ally of the Kauravas after that.  In fact, Drupad was the only ruler who managed to withstand Karna, and paid him some taxes.  Of course, it was inconceivable that Drupad could have supported the Kauravas, given both what happened to Draupadi, as well as his enmity w/ Drona.

On Krishna's wives, his 8 principle wives are the ones who he married first - since that's how the hierarchy of sautans was determined.  So even his marriage to Lakshmanaa had to have happened b4 Narakasura's death.  I know that SB does not follow a chronological order - Banasura's war is described pretty early, as is Rukmi's death.  If Rukmi was there to offer his services to both sides in Udyog Parva, his death had to have happened in the 36 years b/w the end of the Kauravas and the end of the Yadavas & Pandavas.

In which case, the other possibility is that while in MB, Krishna may have met the Pandavas the first time in Draupadi's swayamvara, Krishna may actually have known the Pandavas from much earlier, and Arjun helped Krishna win some of his wives even before the house of lac.  But problem here - in the chapter about Satrajit's death in the Syamantaka gem episodes, after Krishna married Satyabhama, he & Balarama left for Hastinapur, and while there, heard about the demise of the Pandavas in the house of lac.  While he was there, Satyabhama came to him reporting that her father had been murdered, and Krishna left Hastinapur for Dwarka to kill Satadhandva.

Since Satyabhama was unarguably the 3rd of Krishna's wives, and the Pandavas were incognito b4 Draupadi's swayamvara, there is no way Arjun could have helped Krishna find Kalindhi b4 the Khandavprastha episodes, which was when it seems he helped Krishna.  So most of the Arjun-Krishna tales in their happier days seem to have happened either during the burning of the Khandavprastha forests, or during Arjun's prayashchita yatra.  Incidentally, I always get mixed up as to whether it was 1 year or 12 years.  Cutting Arjun loose from duties @ Indraprastha seems pretty cavalier on the part of the Pandavas, if they made that agreement about how to conjugally share Draupadi.  But this exile would probably have been the time that Arjun spent the bulk of it w/ Krishna & Dwarka, getting to be a mentor, if not guru, of Satyaki & Pradhyumna, as well as helping in some of Krishna's marriages as well.

On the conquests, a few things look strange by what you have described.  For instance, if Nakul was conquering the West, how did Hastinapur fall under that - Hastinapur was NE of Indraprastha, as any map would show one.  The Yadavas, otoh, were in Dwarka, which is south.   But more significantly, I think that even for the Rajasuya yagna, the Pandavas would have matrimonial allies and co-hosts, if you will.  So rulers like Kuntibhoj, Shalya, Drupada, Ugrasena would not have been subjected to any invasions or conquests, since their daughters were bahus of the Pandavas.

Also, its unbelievable that Nakul could have subjugated Hastinapur given that Bheeshma was running it - probably, Yudhisthir might have bypassed them and had separate deals w/ Dhritarashtra.  Incidentally, BRC's serial made too much of the camaraderie b/w them, which really never existed.  Nakul was nowhere even close to being a match for the likes of Bheeshma, Drona, Kripa or Ashwatthama, who he would have had to come into battle against there.  If Nakul went west, I think he would have subjugated Kekaya and Shakuni's Gandhara, although it raises a question of how that wouldn't have started a war?  I've started a discussion on that in the Mahabharata thread.

If Arjun was assigned the east and took on rulers like Bhagadatta (I'm assuming that Krishna must have slain Narakasura by then), then Karna's kingdom Anga must have fallen on the way.  Which then begs the question - how did he not go to war w/ Karna?  I don't think Bhima would have covered Karna, given the direction he was headed.  After all, Karna was a sworn ally of Duryodhan and a mortal enemy of Arjun, and there would have been no greater justification of a war on his part than Arjun even using his kingdom as transit territory to invade Pragjyotisha.  Or did Karna never live even one day in Anga? Confused  (this was discussed a bit in the Pandava thread - I'll try pulling it back to the front).

Bhima did defeat Ayodhya's Brihadbala - and Karna defeated the same ruler later, so he fought on the Kaurava side in the war, but was only noted to have fought Abhimanyu every time.  His first point of invasion was Chedi, but Sishupala welcomed him, despite being a tad bitter over him killing Jarasandha, apparently hoping that Bhima would be his new benefactor against Krishna.  Kashi and Karusa fell to the East, so I'd imagine that rather than Arjun, it was Krishna who killed those 2 rulers so that all Arjun had to do was persuade their very novice rulers to accept Yudhisthir's suzerainty.  Magadha was a mere formality, since after Jarasandha's death, Krishna had made acceptance of Yushisthir's suzerainty a condition for installing Sahadev to the throne.

Rather, I think that Bhima's further expeditions would have covered kingdoms like Avanti, Vidarbha, S Kosala and maybe beyond.  The description above seems to suggest that Sahadev would have covered the north, since Bhima was already covering the South, and Arjun the East, and Nakul the West.

P.S.  I imported the Games thread questions here, since I thought that these threads would be a better place to discuss them, rather than break the flow of the games threads.  This thread is a good first point to check, but the others I linked are good as well for seeing what's already been discussed.  Most of them got unglued due to too many stickies,  but you can respond to those and they'll come back in front.  I'll pull the relevant ones back in front, so that we can continue the discussion there.


Edited by .Vrish. - 08 February 2012 at 12:16pm

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ShivangBuch

ShivangBuch

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Posted: 08 February 2012 at 12:30pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

On why the kingdoms who supported the Kauravas did what they did, it is instructive to read about the conquests Karna did after the humiliation of the Kauravas @ the hands of the Gandharvas.  It discusses all the kingdoms that he subjugated and the ones that just had a friendship w/ him.  Bhagadatta fell in the latter category - he wasn't defeated by Karna, IIRC, but he did become an ally of the Kauravas after that.  In fact, Drupad was the only ruler who managed to withstand Karna, and paid him some taxes.  Of course, it was inconceivable that Drupad could have supported the Kauravas, given both what happened to Draupadi, as well as his enmity w/ Drona.
OK. I am very clear now on this point.

On Krishna's wives, his 8 principle wives are the ones who he married first - since that's how the hierarchy of sautans was determined.  So even his marriage to Lakshmanaa had to have happened b4 Narakasura's death.  I know that SB does not follow a chronological order - Banasura's war is described pretty early, as is Rukmi's death.  If Rukmi was there to offer his services to both sides in Udyog Parva, his death had to have happened in the 36 years b/w the end of the Kauravas and the end of the Yadavas & Pandavas.
I still can't agree that other 5 principle wives had to marry Krishna chronologically before those 16,100 wives in order to be counted as principal wives. I think those 5 wives might have got higher status (Or just specific separately known identities nothing else) just because of their stature and position before marriage (relative to those helpless 16,100 wives also too many in number all equal reducing their individual importance) and the way Krishna married them. The chronology rule for status may not be applicable in all cases or especially such abnormal case. Those 16,100 wives may just be formal wives rescued by Krishna and under his shelter in Dwarika.

In which case, the other possibility is that while in MB, Krishna may have met the Pandavas the first time in Draupadi's swayamvara, Krishna may actually have known the Pandavas from much earlier, and Arjun helped Krishna win some of his wives even before the house of lac.  But problem here - in the chapter about Satrajit's death in the Syamantaka gem episodes, after Krishna married Satyabhama, he & Balarama left for Hastinapur, and while there, heard about the demise of the Pandavas in the house of lac.  While he was there, Satyabhama came to him reporting that her father had been murdered, and Krishna left Hastinapur for Dwarka to kill Satadhandva.
OK. Quite clear. Your analyzing is very very agreeable.

Since Satyabhama was unarguably the 3rd of Krishna's wives, and the Pandavas were incognito b4 Draupadi's swayamvara, there is no way Arjun could have helped Krishna find Kalindhi b4 the Khandavprastha episodes, which was when it seems he helped Krishna.  So most of the Arjun-Krishna tales in their happier days seem to have happened either during the burning of the Khandavprastha forests, or during Arjun's prayashchita yatra.  Incidentally, I always get mixed up as to whether it was 1 year or 12 years.  Cutting Arjun loose from duties @ Indraprastha seems pretty cavalier on the part of the Pandavas, if they made that agreement about how to conjugally share Draupadi.  But this exile would probably have been the time that Arjun spent the bulk of it w/ Krishna & Dwarka, getting to be a mentor, if not guru, of Satyaki & Pradhyumna, as well as helping in some of Krishna's marriages as well.
Yes. Those were 12 years clear as per rules agreed by Pandavas at the time of marriage with Draupadi. Arjun had to stay in the forest as Brahmachari during those 12 years (even though he married thrice during that period that's the interesting part of it). He stayed in Manipur with Chitrangadaa for 3 years. In fact towards the end of his forest stay, before going to Dwarika, he once again went to Manipur to see his son Babhruvaahan grown up and met him and crowned him then & there. 

This is the text when the rule was laid down between Pandavas after marriage with Draupadi:

The illustrious Pandavas, thus addressed by the great Rishi Narada, consulting with one another, established a rule amongst themselves in the presence of the celestial Rishi himself endued with immeasurable energy. And the rule they made was that when one of them would be sitting with Draupadi, any of the other four who would see that one thus must retire into the forest for twelve years, passing his days as brahmacharin.


On the conquests, a few things look strange by what you have described.  For instance, if Nakul was conquering the West, how did Hastinapur fall under that - Hastinapur was NE of Indraprastha, as any map would show one.  The Yadavas, otoh, were in Dwarka, which is south.   But more significantly, I think that even for the Rajasuya yagna, the Pandavas would have matrimonial allies and co-hosts, if you will.  So rulers like Kuntibhoj, Shalya, Drupada, Ugrasena would not have been subjected to any invasions or conquests, since their daughters were bahus of the Pandavas.

Also, its unbelievable that Nakul could have subjugated Hastinapur given that Bheeshma was running it - probably, Yudhisthir might have bypassed them and had separate deals w/ Dhritarashtra.  Incidentally, BRC's serial made too much of the camaraderie b/w them, which really never existed.  Nakul was nowhere even close to being a match for the likes of Bheeshma, Drona, Kripa or Ashwatthama, who he would have had to come into battle against there.  If Nakul went west, I think he would have subjugated Kekaya and Shakuni's Gandhara, although it raises a question of how that wouldn't have started a war?  I'll start a discussion on that in the Mahabharata thread.
Nakul finished his journey of West and then went to Hastinapur (sent by Yudhishthir again) to invite them. I have written in my previous posts the names of all the kings who either were conquered by Pandavas or who welcomed and entertained them happily and were being just invited for the friendship and the sacrifice function of Supremacy of Yudhishthir celebrated. Similarly, we can look at other Samdhis and in laws of Pandavas that they were simply invited cordially during the journey of conquests on the way and were not invaded.

If Arjun was assigned the east and took on rulers like Bhagadatta (I'm assuming that Krishna must have slain Narakasura by then), then Karna's kingdom Anga must have fallen on the way.  Which then begs the question - how did he not go to war w/ Karna?  I don't think Bhima would have covered Karna, given the direction he was headed.  After all, Karna was a sworn ally of Duryodhan and a mortal enemy of Arjun, and there would have been no greater justification of a war on his part than Arjun even using his kingdom as transit territory to invade Pragjyotisha.  Or did Karna never live even one day in Anga? Confused  (this was discussed a bit in the Pandava thread - I'll try pulling it back to the front).
Arjun headed to North and Bheem to East as per KMG and my post on the previous page. It was Bheem who conquered Karna as per KMG translation and not Arjun. The only strange thing is the kingdom of Pragjyotish which came on the way of Arjun towards North which is geographically not conceivable.

Bhima did defeat Ayodhya's Brihadbala - and Karna defeated the same ruler later, so he fought on the Kaurava side in the war, but was only noted to have fought Abhimanyu every time.  His first point of invasion was Chedi, but Sishupala welcomed him, despite being a tad bitter over him killing Jarasandha, apparently hoping that Bhima would be his new benefactor against Krishna.  Kashi and Karusa fell to the East, so I'd imagine that rather than Arjun, it was Krishna who killed those 2 rulers so that all Arjun had to do was persuade their very novice rulers to accept Yudhisthir's suzerainty.  Magadha was a mere formality, since after Jarasandha's death, Krishna had made acceptance of Yushisthir's suzerainty a condition for installing Sahadev to the throne.
Yes. About Shishupal, it is clearly mentioned that he entertained Bheem for 1 month. And yes. It is also mentioned very clearly that going to meet Sahadev and get the acknowledgement from him of sway under Pandavas was just a formality.

Rather, I think that Bhima's further expeditions would have covered kingdoms like Avanti, Vidarbha, S Kosala and maybe beyond.  The description above seems to suggest that Sahadev would have covered the north, since Bhima was already covering the South, and Arjun the East, and Nakul the West.
Sahdev covered South. In fact not just today's South India but anything South of Gwalior/Chedi (Northern part of MP). In fact strange point here is that even Saurashtra is mentioned in his conquest (which is today's Western India) which in fact is very close to Dwarika if we consider Prabhas and Veraval of those days to be Saurashtra (Dwarika is in fact part of today's Saurashtra) whereas it was Nakul who went to Dwarika. So Dwarika and rest of Saurashtra was border line between Nakul and Sahdev. Chedi was the border line between Bheem and Sahdev. Ayodhya was the border line between Bheem and Arjun. And Bheem's journey extended upto Angdesh (Kaling was covered by Sahdev) and hence beyond West Bengal, the region of Pragjyotish was covered by Arjun (probably the entire portion of Himalayas just above Bheem's journey (Nepal-Bhutan) and Pragjyotish also came in that line. Sahdev's journey seems to be the lengthiest and he, Bheem and Arjun seem to have covered more kings than Nakul.

P.S.  I imported the Games thread questions here, since I thought that these threads would be a better place to discuss them, rather than break the flow of the games threads. This thread is a good first point to check, but the others I linked are good as well for seeing what's already been discussed.  Most of them got unglued due to too many stickies,  but you can respond to those and they'll come back in front.
Yeah. Exactly what I guessed and mentioned that you considered this to be better place and gave me past reference to align my mind with other members on the topic. I said sorry purely by self realization of posting the question here without checking other threads or without asking you personally rather than misunderstanding the your intention of posting that link of Mahabharat doubts to make me feel my fault. I just said sorry for duplicating the same query and haven't doubted your intention don't worry. I just said I posted here guessing that you possibly hinted me to do it or was probably expecting me to do it.


Edited by ShivangBuch - 08 February 2012 at 12:33pm

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.Vrish.varaali

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Posted: 08 February 2012 at 1:00pm | IP Logged
Shivang

I'll answer the above post shortly, but I've forked some of the points you discuss above in the following threads.  Please check out my last post in them, and respond as you like.  Since a single discussion touches on many aspects, I decided to spawn and discuss them separately, rather than have a huge discussion here alone.  Hope that's okay w/ you Smile





Edited by .Vrish. - 08 February 2012 at 1:01pm

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 14 March 2012 at 7:12am | IP Logged
I have a question that came to mind.  After the Yadavas had their fratricide, which wiped out all of Krishna's sons, grandsons and other friends such as Satyaki, Kritavarma, Akrura, Bubhru and everyone else, Krishna sent Daruka to fetch Arjun to evacuate the city.

Thing that strikes me - why did Yudhisthir send Arjun alone?  Something as major as this should have involved sending at least a small division of the Pandava army, and similarly, I'd think Bhima too should have been sent along w/ Arjun, if not Nakul & Sahadev.  As it is, during the return journey, Arjun was attacked by some dacoits who not only defeated him, but managed to rob the Yadavas and abduct a number of their young womenfolk.

It would seem that when Arjun left Hastinapur, he knew that the reason he was going to Dwarka wasn't to meet Krishna, but to help save the survivors of that carnage.  Despite his past exploits in Matsya, it hardly seemed like a one-man job: had he taken his army, as well as some of his brothers, and maybe Vrishaketu and Meghavarma, this evacuation would have been more successful in that they'd not have been defeated by some dacoits.

Is there anything to suggest why Krishna asked for Arjun alone to come w/ Daruka?  In fact, given everything that was to follow, a proper logical course of action would have been
  • Yudhisthir abdicating and handing over the kingdom to Parikshit, crowning him @ Indraprastha
  • The 5 Pandavas all going to Dwarka w/ a small division of the army - to be returned to Parikshit after their job was done
  • The Pandavas organizing the evacuation of Dwarka, Arjun returning his Gandhiva to Varuna and taking another temporary bow (since the Gandhiva turned out to be worthless in that final battle)
  • The Pandavas escorting the Yadava survivors - Vajra, Udhav, Rukmini, Satyabhama, et al to Mathura, and battling the dacoits en route, w/ probably greater success
  • The Pandavas establishing the kingdoms of Vajra, as well as the sons of Satyaki & Kritavarma
  • Pandavas return to Indraprastha, return the troops to Parikshit, lay down their royal robes, and along w/ Draupadi, leave for Swargalok.  Satyabhama & Krishna's surviving queens accompany them (in the Mahabharata, Satyabhama, Satya and Lakshmanaa went to a place called Kalpa in the Himalayas, where they became ascetics, while Rukmini, Jambavati and the others cremated themselves, and the 16,100 other wives drowned themselves in the Saraswati river)
Would have saved them 2 trips to Dwarka - after the Pandavas abdicated, they travelled south to Dwarka where they paid homage to Krishna, and where Arjun returned the Gandhiva to Varuna, and the Pandavas then turned back towards the Himalayas.  This way, Arjun could have done it all in one trip.


Edited by .Vrish. - 14 March 2012 at 7:19am

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Posted: 16 March 2012 at 6:06am | IP Logged
Originally posted by ShivangBuch

And one more thing. I just tried to find today and found that Shonitpur and Pragjyotish both were modern day Asam. Shonitpur was today's Guwahati and Pragjyotish was today's Tezpur. I was knowing about both individually but today it just clicked in my mind together that how could both be Asam??!!!

One more interesting thing I found was that Banasur's friend Bhamasur was the other name of Narakasur. And he was shown fighting with Krishna in those Jarasandh wars in the serial SK. Bhamasur is the variation of Bhaumasur - Bhauma - Bhoomidevi's son. Can you tell me whether in SK, his killing by Krishna is shown during Banasur battle track separately (because I know that portrayal of open chested giant flying Narakasur and actor is different from Bhaumasur well dressed on chariot and with crown and bows & arrows in the serial)?

I had no idea about the city/kingdom of Shonitpur.  Where did it come up?  In Gauhati, some stores still carry the name 'Pragjyotisha', so I'm not even sure that that's correct.  In fact, I think Pragjyotisha was the name of the kingdom, not just a city.  Sorta like Ujjain, Mithila, Vidarbha, et al.

Banasura being friends of Narakasura - sounds pretty unlikely, given that Banasura was simply vain, but not a tyrant.  If he was a descendant of Bali, chances are that he didn't mix w/ the usual evil demons, but simply got bored w/ all his power.  I haven't seen all of RS SK - Debi might be able to describe more about what they showed.  I only saw RS-SK from the start of the war onwards. Banasura's is the last track of the serial, which ends in him handing over Usha and Anirudha back to Krishna.

Also, can you answer my other question above - the one about why Krishna asked for only Arjun to come and evacuate the denizens of Dwarka?  Analysis from Varaali, Debi and others are also welcome.

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Posted: 16 March 2012 at 7:46am | IP Logged
Shivang,

Shonitpur is described in Hari Vamsa as the city of Nagas, hence it may be the modern day Nagaland- which is quite close to Assam / Pragjyotisha

Vrish,
 
 I don't know what the Mausala Parva says, but as per Srimad Bhagavatham, Arjuna went to Dwraka on his own accord- when Krishna was very much alive. He was there for seven months when tragedy struck the Yadavas. At the time of Krishna's passing, Maharaja Yudhishthir in Hastinapur, began to observe inauspicious omens and confides his fears to Bhimasena. Apparently, he had already been warned by Maharishi Narada of Krishna's intentions to leave the world.
 
Even as he is speaking to Bhima, Arjuna arrives and when he bows to his elder brother, Yudhishthira notices Arjuna's face streaked with tears and his worst fears are confirmed.  Arjuna breaks down while recalling the  moments spent with Krishna. Arjuna also acknowledges that while on his way back he was atacked by a group of ordinary thugs and he- the hero of Mahabharata War- was helpless, but he attributes his helplessness to the absence of Krishna.
All of the above is descrbed in the 14 and 15 chapters , Skanda 1 of Srimad Bhagavatham

So, to answer your questions-
 
1) Arjuna went to Dwarka long before the fratricide.
2) he just happened to be there when the tragy struck
3)There was no time to call for help from Hastinapur.
4)He collected the survivors and began to move towards Hastinapur.
 
In SB, it desnot explicitly say that Arjuna returned his Gandhiva, but he acknowledges that he was defeated by ordnary thieves on his wayback, despite having the Gandhiva in hand


Edited by varaali - 16 March 2012 at 10:05am

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Posted: 16 March 2012 at 11:25am | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali

Shivang,

Shonitpur is described in Hari Vamsa as the city of Nagas, hence it may be the modern day Nagaland- which is quite close to Assam / Pragjyotisha

Vrish,
 
 I don't know what the Mausala Parva says, but as per Srimad Bhagavatham, Arjuna went to Dwraka on his own accord- when Krishna was very much alive. He was there for seven months when tragedy struck the Yadavas. At the time of Krishna's passing, Maharaja Yudhishthir in Hastinapur, began to observe inauspicious omens and confides his fears to Bhimasena. Apparently, he had already been warned by Maharishi Narada of Krishna's intentions to leave the world.
 
Even as he is speaking to Bhima, Arjuna arrives and when he bows to his elder brother, Yudhishthira notices Arjuna's face streaked with tears and his worst fears are confirmed.  Arjuna breaks down while recalling the  moments spent with Krishna. Arjuna also acknowledges that while on his way back he was atacked by a group of ordinary thugs and he- the hero of Mahabharata War- was helpless, but he attributes his helplessness to the absence of Krishna.
All of the above is descrbed in the 14 and 15 chapters , Skanda 1 of Srimad Bhagavatham

So, to answer your questions-
 
1) Arjuna went to Dwarka long before the fratricide.
2) he just happened to be there when the tragy struck
3)There was no time to call for help from Hastinapur.
4)He collected the survivors and began to move towards Hastinapur.
 
In SB, it desnot explicitly say that Arjuna returned his Gandhiva, but he acknowledges that he was defeated by ordnary thieves on his wayback, despite having the Gandhiva in hand

Varaali

Thanks for filling this in.  It does satisfactorily explain why Arjun alone was there.  I was asking it more from a Mahabharata pov.

How does Hari Vamsa describe the events?  I'll summarize what Mausala parva says - one can check the original here:
  • After Krishna leaves the Ashwamedha, it's the last time that he sees the Pandavas.  In the Ashramvasika Parva, the end of Dhritarashtra, Gandhari, Vidura & Kunti are described.
  • Mausala Parva begins w/ the narration of how the Yadavas took Samba to Vishwamitra, Kanva & other rishis in the guise of a woman, and got cursed.
  • Samba gave birth to a mace, which Ugrasena ordered be grounded and scattered in a field so that it can't destroy the Yadavas.  He also bans alcohol consumption, and it was backed up by edicts from Krishna, Balarama and Vabhru.  Dwaraka citizens went by that edict
  • Yadava society started coming apart @ the seams, and most people started behaving immorally, w/ the exceptions of Krishna & Balarama.  Ill omens followed.  Krishna recognized that it was 36 years since the war, and that the time for the destruction of the Yadavas, as per Gandhari's curse, had arrived
  • In the very sight of the Vrishnis, Krishna & Balarama lost all their divine accessories - his discus, their chariots and horses, while the apsaras stole their flags and other accessories
  • The Yadavas, Vrishnis, Andhakas, Bhojas and Satvatas all went to Prabhasa, where they set up camp, and had a massive party which this time included alcohol, among other things.  Having abstained all these years, it was now happy hour
  • Satyaki started an argument w/ Kritavarma, which escalated to him killing him right there, and a melee following it, in which he, Pradhyumna and all of Krishna's sons and grandsons as well as other Yadava ministers and warriors got killed.  Krishna himself got into the fray by plucking the grass that had grown over the mace dust, and everybody else randomly followed his lead, got magical maces, and in no time, all able bodied Yadavas were dead
  • Krishna then asked Daruka to go to Hastinapur and fetch Arjun, and inform him of the carnage, so that Arjun could  come.
  • Krishna then asked Vabhru to go and look after the womenfolk until Arjun arrived.  However Vabhru was killed by a flying mace.  Krishna then asked Balarama to wait for him while he went to make final arrangements for the safety of the womenfolk
  • Krishna then approached Vasudev and handed over to him that responsibility, and asked him to take care of everything until Arjun arrived.
  • He then returned, and saw Balarama in an yogic trance, w/ a huge white snake exiting his mouth.  That was followed by his lying down near a tree and getting killed by Jara
  • When Arjun arrived, Vasudeva described to him everything, and died the next day.   Devaki, Rohini, Bhadra and Madira committed Sati, and Arjun took all the women & children out of Dwaraka.
The rest is history.  In the next chapter, Mahaprasthanika Parva, Yudhisthir steps down and crowns Parikshit the ruler of Hastinapur, while Vajra is mentioned as the ruler of Indraprastha, and both are assigned to Subhadra.  Later, after the Pandavas left, Agni appeared before them and asked Arjun to return the Gandhiva to Varuna, which he did.

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