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+* Dwapar Yuga: Doubts & Discussions *+ (Page 27)

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 31 January 2012 at 2:45am | IP Logged
I've moved the Gyaan Guru discussions to this thread in the Gyaan Guru forum - please continue it there Smile

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Posted: 02 February 2012 at 10:37pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali

Originally posted by ShivangBuch



Now my question to Varaali is - Were Paundrak and Shrungalav/Shrungaal same? Researchers have divided opinions I think. Both were killed by Krishna and both were making people to worship them as Vaasudev but both were in different sources. One is in Harivansh and one is in SB. As per Krishnaavataar novel, the location of Karveerpur of Shrungalav was near Goa somewhere in Karnataka. And Paundra desh was somewhere around Magadh and Angdesh. Today's Bihar, Jharkhand, Sikkim, Darjiling, West Bengal. Also if Karveerpur and Karusa are same, then they are the names of capital. Saubhya also seems to be capital of Shaalva desh. But Magadh and Vidarbha are the names of kingdoms. Their capitals were Girivraj and Kundinpur respectively. Chedi is the name of Desh but I don't know about the capital. And no idea about Kashi, Avanti and Pragjyotish. All seem to be the names of capitals but it seems that country and capital both were same here in names. Also in case of Vidarbha, its geographical span is very very strange and worth debating. Vidarbha means Nagpur. Kundinpur some say to be today's Kolhapur. Now One is North Maharashtra and one is South Maharashtra and both are far away from each other in terms of distance. And what makes the matter more puzzling is the place near Indore of Gauri mandir (today's Madhyapradesh) just south west of Chedi from where Rukmini was kidnapped and Rukmi started his independent kingdom. Was Vidarbha geographically biggest kingdom!!!!!!!!!!!!Shocked

Very good analysis. 

Yes you are correct in your understanding of Paundrak / Srigalva Vasudev.

Paundrak's story appears in SB. He is said to be the ruler of a kingdon called Karusa, near Kashi. In this story, first Paundrak sends an envoy to Dwaraka, asking Krishna to surender his chakra. After a hearty laugh, Krishna marches to Karusha and defeats and kills Paundrak and his ally Kashiraj. 

In HariVamsa, this episode takes place after Krishna/ Balarama defeat Jarashandha. I had described this episode here

Shivang & Varaali

I imported your discussion here, so that we can continue...

On your question above, I read Karusa as being Paundrak's kingdom, but somewhere else, I read about it actually being Dantavatra's.  Any idea which kingdom Dantavatra ruled?  Also, in the above, Vidarbha & Magadha were kingdoms, like you said, with capitals of Kundinpur & Rajgriha; Rukmi moved the capital to Bhojakot.  Avanti was the kingdom whose capital is Ujjain, Kashi contained Varanasi and Pragjyotisha was Assam, while Karna's Anga was North Bengal, Sikkim, those places.  Dunno what the capital was.  Chedi was in MP, and it was the first place Bhima went to after he killed Jarasandha, & Sishupala welcomed his new overlord Evil Smile hoping to have an ally the same way he had Jarasandha.  So I'd put it in the Bundelkhand/Gwalior region of the state.

On Vidarbha, Kundinpur is where Amravati is today, and I dunno where Bhojakot is.  While Vidarbha may have been a large kingdom, I don't think it included areas that are today in Marathwada or Konkan - Kolhapur is not in Vidarbha, and probably wasn't.  Nasik probably was.  East of that kingdom was Dakshin Kosala - the kingdom that Kaushalya & Krishna's 7th wife Satya were from, and today's Chattisgarh.

I sometimes wonder whether the Shalva who Bheeshma humiliated & couldn't marry Amba was the same as the one who laid waste to Dwarka, was defeated by Pradhyumna and ultimately slain by Krishna.  B'cos in SB, he's described as a danav, whereas the person Amba wanted to marry seemed a mediocre warrior by comparison.  It's true that Shalva did some tapasya to Mahadev to be able to get ultimate weapons to defeat Dwarka, but I can't imagine Amba falling in love w/ a danav.  And in SB, after Krishna killed him, he sent his discus to destroy Saubhya, which seemed to be a spaceship, rather than a geographic terrain LOL  But if it was geographic, I'd think it would have been somewhere in Kutch - somewhere that Shalva could have got to b4 Krishna could get there from Indraprastha.

I'd put Matsya in the Kota area of Rajasthan, and Susharma's Trigartha somewhere nearby.

P.S.  I had asked a question here about Kashi.  Can anyone see it and discuss that there?


Edited by .Vrish. - 02 February 2012 at 11:09pm

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Posted: 03 February 2012 at 5:43am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.


Shivang & Varaali

I imported your discussion here, so that we can continue...

On your question above, I read Karusa as being Paundrak's kingdom, but somewhere else, I read about it actually being Dantavatra's.  Any idea which kingdom Dantavatra ruled? Also, in the above, Vidarbha & Magadha were kingdoms, like you said, with capitals of Kundinpur & Rajgriha; Rukmi moved the capital to Bhojakot. Avanti was the kingdom whose capital is Ujjain
I thought Avantika was just another name of the city Ujjain and not the name of region (And Girivraja capital name of Magadh I read in the novel rather than Rajgriha).


Kashi contained Varanasi and Pragjyotisha was Assam, while Karna's Anga was North Bengal, Sikkim, those places.  Dunno what the capital was. Chedi was in MP, and it was the first place Bhima went to after he killed Jarasandha, & Sishupala welcomed his new overlord Evil Smile hoping to have an ally the same way he had Jarasandha.  So I'd put it in the Bundelkhand/Gwalior region of the state.
This entire analysis is perfect and I agree with you. 

On Vidarbha, Kundinpur is where Amravati is today, and I dunno where Bhojakot is.
If you search in google map Amjhera near Indore, that's where Gauri mandir is from Rukmini was abducted as people say.

While Vidarbha may have been a large kingdom, I don't think it included areas that are today in Marathwada or Konkan - Kolhapur is not in Vidarbha, and probably wasn't.  Nasik probably was. 
Exactly. That's my point. I can't imagine Kolhapur to be Kundinpur. But this is how many internet sources say - both to be synonyms of each other. One of today and one of MB times. This is the main and real part of my doubt.


I sometimes wonder whether the Shalva who Bheeshma humiliated & couldn't marry Amba was the same as the one who laid waste to Dwarka, was defeated by Pradhyumna and ultimately slain by Krishna.  B'cos in SB, he's described as a danav, whereas the person Amba wanted to marry seemed a mediocre warrior by comparison.  It's true that Shalva did some tapasya to Mahadev to be able to get ultimate weapons to defeat Dwarka, but I can't imagine Amba falling in love w/ a danav.  And in SB, after Krishna killed him, he sent his discus to destroy Saubhya, which seemed to be a spaceship, rather than a geographic terrain LOL  But if it was geographic, I'd think it would have been somewhere in Kutch - somewhere that Shalva could have got to b4 Krishna could get there from Indraprastha.
Same doubt here. I am with you (as man in doubt looking for answer LOL). And Shaalva desh is also somewhere in north of Kachchha - Mahamarusthal desert including Kachchha and Rajasthan areas right.

I had asked a question here about Kashi.  Can anyone see it and discuss that there?
Same here. I saw your question post before seeing this link (when Varaali posted the link of her Shrungalav post). Again I am with you word to word asking the same doubt but no answer.

And so Karveerpur was not in Karnataka or in South India? Was that same as Paundra capital in East? That's the biggest question of the lot. Where was Gomantak? Not in Goa? Is that the conclusion from the other page of that link? If it was not in Goa then Krishna went far east from Gomantak to reach Shrungalav?!!!!!!!!!!Shocked He actually was very close to his capital as per Harivansh!!! This is exactly the point (point of geography) where researchers are in two minds I suppose - whether Shrungalav is same as Paundrak or not (and also Shrungalav's dynasty described). And what were the names of their fathers? I read somewhere it to be Vasudev only (in case of one of them of course).

Here are good links for the reference of our current point going on:



Edited by ShivangBuch - 03 February 2012 at 5:56am

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Posted: 03 February 2012 at 7:12am | IP Logged
Indore is very near Ujjain, so chances are that it was a part of Avanti - Vinda/Anuvinda's kingdom.  The Gauri mandir - remember, the way Krishna abducted Mitravindya from her swayamvara was very similar to the way Rukmini was abducted, so the people here may have confused Krishna abducting the local princess here as meaning that he abducted Rukmini, as opposed to Mitravindya.  So chances are that that's what is under discussion.

I think that Kundinpur was where Amravati is.  Dunno about Bhojakot again.

I think that Karusa & Shrungalav were different kingdoms.  In SB, Karusa is described as Paundrak's kingdom, and the location is given as being near Kashi, which is why Kashiraj was an ally of his, and which would then put Kashi in the Purvanchal area of UP.  The HV version - does it describe Dantavakra's kingdom as Karusa?  B'cos both Paundrak & Dantavakra couldn't have been the rulers of the same kingdom.

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Posted: 04 February 2012 at 1:36am | IP Logged
^^^^^ Yes, In HV, Dantavaktra is mentioned as te king of Karusha.

Shrigalva Vasudeva is described as a Yadu descendant, whose kingdom was Karavirapura, which would be somewhere in near the Sahyadri Ranges.

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Posted: 06 February 2012 at 5:30am | IP Logged

Following is the KMG translation of Adi Parva which provides a very strange list of people who were present in Draupadi swayamvar (Dhrishtdhyumna even says a step ahead that they all came for Draupadi - a statement if generalized, produces very weird and strange conclusions). My question is - What was the age of Arjun/Krishna, all Krishna's famous sons (2-3 of them) and Aniruddha at the time of Draupadi swayamvar, Dhyutkrida and Kurukshetra war or such major events? How older Uttar was than Uttaraa (Shankh and Uttar are mentioned but 3rd brother Shwet is not mentioned here)? How much elder Krishna was than Subhadra? In BRC MB, Uttar is shown younger than Uttaraa.


(Swayamvara Parva continued)

"Dhrishtadyumna said, 'Duryodhana, Durvisaha, Durmukha and Dushpradharshana, Vivinsati, Vikarna, Saha, and Duhsasana; Yuyutsu and Vayuvega and Bhimavegarava; Ugrayudha, Valaki, Kanakayu, and Virochana, Sukundala, Chitrasena, Suvarcha, and Kanakadhwaja; Nandaka, and Vahusali, and Tuhunda, and Vikata; these, O sister, and many other mighty sons of Dhritarashtra--all heroes--accompanied by Karna, have come for thy hand. Innumerable other illustrious monarchs all bulls among Kshatriyas--have also come for thee. Sakuni, Sauvala, Vrisaka, and Vrihadvala,--these sons of the king Gandhara--have also come. Foremost of all wielders of weapons--the illustrious Aswatthaman and Bhoja, adorned with every ornament have also come for thee. Vrihanta, Manimana, Dandadhara, Sahadeva, Jayatsena, Meghasandhi, Virata with his two sons Sankha and Uttara, Vardhakshemi, Susarma, Senavindu, Suketu with his two sons Sunama and Suvarcha, Suchitra, Sukumara, Vrika, Satyadhriti, Suryadhwaja, Rochamana, Nila, Chitrayudha, Agsuman, Chekitana, the mighty Sreniman, Chandrasena the mighty son of Samudrasena, Jarasandha, Vidanda, and Danda--the father and son, Paundraka Vasudeva, Bhagadatta endued with great energy, Kalinga, Tamralipta, the king of Pattana, the mighty car-warrior Salya, the king of Madra, with his son, the heroic Rukmangada, Rukmaratha, Somadatta of the Kuru race with his three sons, all mighty chariot-fighters and heroes, viz., Bhuri, Bhurisrava, and Sala, Sudakshina, Kamvoja of the Puru race, Vrihadvala, Sushena, Sivi, the son of Usinara, Patcharanihanta, the king of Karusha, Sankarshana (Valadeva), Vasudeva (Krishna), the mighty son of Rukmini, SamvaCharudeshna, the son of Pradyumna with Gada, Akrura, Satyaki, the high-souled Uddhava, Kritavarman, the son of Hridika, Prithu, Viprithu, Viduratha, Kanka, Sanku with Gaveshana, Asavaha, Aniruddha, Samika, Sarimejaya, the heroic Vatapi Jhilli Pindaraka, the powerful Usinara, all these of the Vrishni race, Bhagiratha, Vrihatkshatra, Jayadratha the son of Sindhu, Vrihadratha, Valhika, the mighty charioteer Srutayu, Uluka, Kaitava, Chitrangada and Suvangada, the highly intelligent Vatsaraja, the king of Kosala, Sisupala and the powerful Jarasandha, these and many other great kings--all Kshatriyas celebrated throughout the world--have come, O blessed one, for thee. Endued with prowess, these will shoot the mark. And thou shalt choose him for thy husband who amongst these will shoot the mark."


As per the following research, Arjun was of the age of 37 years at the time of Draupadi Swayamvar (Point 24 - 44th Vedic calendar year Sadharna) and Pandavas stayed in Hidimbvan (Western India) + Ekchakra nagari (Northern/Central India more towards east - Kashi-Magadh) for 2-3 years (Keelak to Sadharna). And Arjun's age was 58 years (Pramodhoota) when Abhimanyu was born and 87 years old when Abhimanyu married to Uttaraa and Kurukshetra war took place (as per the link below).


http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/mahabharat/mahab_patnaik.html


Now I can't imagine Pradhyumn's son even born when Arjun didn't marry even Draupadi so someone could just help me compiling these different sources of knowledge. The above references lead us to conclude that Krishna was grandfather at the age of 37. He already had gone through the kand of Syamantak mani, kidnapping of Pradhyumn and fight with Narkasur-Mur (not just his marriages with Rukmini, Jambuvati and Satyabhama). Notice that Bhagdatta's name is also mentioned above in the list but not Narkasur. Krishna killed Kans at the age somewhere between 11 to 15 let's say and then immediately went to Sandipani. And then everything happened (Jarasandh wars and Dwarika nirman and marriages) happened during 20-25 years only. Now let's Krishna married to Rukmini at the age of 18-20; and even if there is just the difference of 2 years between marriage of Krishna-Rukmini and marriage of Pradhyumn (As he was straightaway made young through Sanjeevani vidhya and supposedly became very much of the same age as that of Krishna), then only Aniruddha (And Saamb) could be of the age around 15 at the time of Draupadi swayamvar. But now this is to analyse Saamb's age (which can even be less than Aniruddha) from Anushasan Parva:


"Vasudeva said, 'Hear, ye foremost of Brahmana's and thou Yudhishthira also, O sire, and hear thou too, O Ganga's son, the names that are applied unto Kaparddin. Hear ye, how in former days, I obtained a sight, so difficult to obtain, (of that great god), for the sake of Samva. Verily, in those days was the illustrious deity seen by me in consequence of Yoga-abstraction.[36] After twelve years had expired from the time when Pradyumna, the son of Rukmini, who is endued with great intelligence, slew the Asura Samvara in days of yore, my spouse Jamvavati addressed me. Indeed, beholding Pradyumna and Charudeshna and other sons born of Rukmini, Jamvavati, desirous of a son, said these words unto me, O Yudhishthira,--Grant me, O thou of unfading glory, a son endued with heroism, the foremost of mighty men, possessed of the most agreeable features, sinless in conduct, and like unto thyself. And O, let there be no delay on thy part in granting this prayer of mine. There is nothing in the three worlds that is unattainable by thee, O perpetuator of Yadu's race, thou canst create other worlds if only thou wishest it. Observing a vow for twelve years and purifying thyself, thou hadst adored the Lord of all creatures (viz., Mahadeva) and then begot upon Rukmini the sons that she has obtained from thee, viz., Charudeshna and Sucharu and Charuvesa and Yasodhana and Charusravas and Charuyasas and Pradyumna and Sambhu. O slayer of Madhu, do thou grant to me a son like unto those of great powers whom thou hast begotten upon Rukmini?


Now the above paragraph indicates that Pradhyumn was born at least after 12 years of Krishna's marriage with Rukmini (so my earlier assumption above of 2 years difference is wrong), and at least after 12 years from Pradhyumn, Krishna started the penance for Saamb and adding another 12 years presumingly (I didn't try to read the part far further down after not finding it nearby), it makes 36 years of difference itself between Rukmini's marriage and Saamb's birth. So it is not possible that Krishna's age was just 37 at the time of Draupadi's swayamvar. Now the two paragraphs which I posted are from the same source (Mahabharat KMG translation). Krishna's childhood and Pandava's childhood were similar (in Vraj and in forest without education) with Krishna's childhood likely to be a bit longer and Krishna's education is likely to be quick and faster than Pandavas. Pandavas then went on vijay yatra during the years between Rangbhoomi (episodes around Gurudakshina given to Sandipani and Dron in BRC MB) and Lakshagruh. These were probably the years during which many of Krishna's independent stories of Harivansh and Shrimad Bhaagwat (And MahaBharat flashback stories) took place.


Another point is that Paundrak was there in Draupadi swayamvar and he also met Hanumanji as per the story shown in R SK (Hanumanji met Bheem and Arjun in Vanparva - I don't know why in SK they have shown both Arjun and Bheem meeting Hanumanji in get up with crown unlike MB) so he was killed by Krishna after even Dhyutkrida (Just after the war with Shaalva) and Draupadi vastraharan (It is worth checking Paundrak's name in Rajsuya yagna parva) but Narkaasur, Shambharasur and Shrungalav were killed before Draupadi swayamvar (And Shrungalav even before Rukmini's marriage). So clearly with that (apart from Geography and dynasty logic), Shrungalav is different from Paundrak if we compile various sources together (SB, MB and Harivansh with former 2 having reference of Paundrak and latter having reference of Shrungalav). Also it seems clear that Paundrak was there along with Krishna at a common public place and occasion and was also there part of Jarasandh's alliance army (As per SB) whereas Shrungalav impliedly or secretly supported Jarasandh in Gomantak by not giving shelter to Krishna in Karveerpur (Possibly never met Krishna before but may have heard about his charisma and influence over people). One can say that they had seen Krishna and people's fanism, faith and devotion for him at common public places and out of great jealousy, they initiated the same within their limited circle of countrymen (both Paundrak and Shrungalav did the same thing or followed the same psychology or behaviour of imitating Krishna).



Edited by ShivangBuch - 06 February 2012 at 6:31am

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Posted: 06 February 2012 at 9:43am | IP Logged
Shivang

Check out the first page of this thread, where Varaali laid out the comparitive ages of Krishna & the Pandavas, and what either was doing in parallel before their roads converged @ Kampiliya.


To first answer the question about Abhimanyu's generation - Uttar, Sankha, Pradhyumna, et al, I think that if they were there, they were there as kids, not as prospective suitors.  

Pradhyumna I think was born probably after the Syamantaka episodes and Krishna's marriages w/ Satyabhama & Jambavati.  Since he didn't meet his parents for 12 years, I think that that would have been his age when he returned to them, and had Mayavati (Rati) as his wife.  If that was the case, it's very unlikely that Anirudha could have been there, unless Pradhyumna happened to have had Anirudha from Mayavati, rather than Rukmavati (which is what SB maintains.  Incidentally, does HV too agree that Anirudha was son of Rukmavati & Vajra of Rochana?)  Also, if Krishna's other sons, like Samba & Charudeshna were there, it seems to conflict w/ Devi Bhagvatam, where Krishna, after the abduction of Pradhyumna, went to the heavens to ask for 10 sons for each of his wives in order to drown their sorrows.  But @ the time Draupadi married, Krishna had only his first 3 wives - Kalindhi and everyone beyond was married @ the time Yudhisthir & Draupadi were king & queen of Indraprastha.  On Subhadra, Krishna would have been much older than her - after all, she was seemingly born after Vasudeva's release, to Rohini.

About Matsya, when Arjun fought the Kauravas alongside Uttar, he at that time told Arjun that he was a mere boy, so put his age @ somewhere around 16 - the same as Abhimanyu's?  I'm ignoring the BRC account that he was younger to Uttara, b'cos if Abhimanyu was 16, Uttara was maybe 14, and Uttar, @ 13 or less, wouldn't have been a compatant in that case (hey, Vrishaketu wasn't a combatant, and his age was somewhat younger to Abhimanyu & Draupadi's sons).  Uttar was the youngest of Virata's sons - Sveta, who died fighting Bheeshma to avenge Uttar's death, was the 2nd, and Shankha, who was killed by Drona cruelly when he was taking his father away who was fleeing from Drona, was the eldest, and probably the yuvraj.  Incidentally, while there were survivors of the rulers in other kingdoms - like Dhrishtaketu's brother became ruler of Chedi, Jarasandha's grandson became ruler of Magadha, et al, there is nothing about any survivors from Matsya.  In the case of Panchala, Drona & Ashwatthama had wiped out everyone.

Bhagadutta being present in Draupadi's swayamvara seems really out of place.  After all, after this marriage, Yudhisthir & Draupadi became rulers of Indraprastha, and Arjun, while in the company of Krishna, helped him marry Kalindhi and by some accounts Bhadra or Mitravindya, and both Bhima & Arjun were there @ Lakshmanaa's swayamvar.  Krishna's marriage to the next 16,100 wives happened after that, meaning Narakasura was still alive, and Bhagadatta was a nobody - maybe he was the yuvraj of Pragjyotisha.  Narakasura's women were after all junior in stature to Krishna's principle 8 wives.

On Paundrak, I had no idea about the timeline in which he was killed.  The section above suggests that he was there @ Draupadi's swayamvar, which would mean that he'd probably have been killed by Krishna after the death of Jarasandha, while the Pandavas were busy consolidating their empire.  IIRC, Bhima went South, Nakul & Sahadev went West & North (forget which order) and Arjun went East, so Arjun would either have come into conflict w/ him, or gotten a welcome similar to what Sishupala gave Bhima.  Do you have handy what MB says about the campaigns that the Pandavas carried out following the death of Jarasandha, and b4 the death of Sishupala?  In the ACK, it was given that Paundrak fought alongside Jarasandha against Balarama during Rukmini's abduction, but it was unclear what the source of that was, although the whole story in the ACK seemed consistent w/ SB.

Arjun's age - the way you are putting it - seems inflated, since the MB is pretty plain that Drona was in his 80s during that war.  I would think the Pandavas would have been in their late 60s - after all, if they were something like in their 20s when they married Draupadi, then Yushisthir ruled Indraprastha for 36 years, then there was the 13 years of exile.  After the war, they lived for 36 years, so they died in their low 100s - similar to Krishna.

Incidentally, MB tends to contradict itself in a few places.  For instance, in Udyog Parva, it describes Balarama as being disapproving of the war, and refusing to support either side.  But in Shalya Parva, when Balarama appears @ the pond where Bhima & Duryodhan were to have their final encounter,  the story segways into all the pilgrimages that Balarama did w/ everywhere, and there, it was also mentioned that Balarama wanted Krishna & the family to support the Kauravas, Shocked but Krishna would have none of it.  That bit actually shocked me - while Balarama was known to have a weakness for Duryodhan, I'd have thought that had he joined the war, he'd have joined on the Pandava side just so that he could have gotten to test Duryodhan.

I know - for the time being, everything I wrote above is from memory - I don't currently have KMG open, and it does take some time to dig that up.

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Posted: 08 February 2012 at 6:31am | IP Logged

KMG - Pre Rajsuya yagna victories

And Arjuna, the son of the chastiser of Paka then brought under subjugation that direction (the North) which was presided over by the Lord of treasures. And Bhimasena overcome by force the East and Sahadeva the South, and Nakula, O king, acquainted with all the weapons, conquered the west.


I am not posting the actual text march of each Pandav because it is too long and scattered in many paragraphs with many unknown names of kings and kingdoms also but just summarizing major points of whom Pandavas conquered or were respectfully and willingly entertained without war:

Arjun - Bhagdatta, Valhikas, Uluk (there is mention of Uluka region not Uluk the son of Shakuni or name of Gandhar region); 

Bheem - Kosala (possibly North), Kashi, Paundrak, Shishupal, Magadh, Karna; 

Nakul - Shalya, Yadavas, Hastinapur; 

Sahdev - Matsya, Kosala (possibly South), Vind and Anuvind, Rukmi, Bhishmak, Dantavakra (King of Adhiraj), Paundrayas, Maind and Dwivid of Kishkindha, Vibhishan the grandson of Pulatsya. Strange thing is that Paundrak Vaasudev and Paundrayas both are mentioned one in the march of Bheem towards east and one in march of Sahdev towards South. Paundrak's presence in Rajasuya yagna is also mentioned in KMG later in the list of all who were present in the function. Virat was also present with his 2 sons (not 3).






Edited by ShivangBuch - 08 February 2012 at 11:25pm

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