Dwarkadheesh - Bhagwaan Shree Krishna

   

+* Dwapar Yuga: Doubts & Discussions *+ (Page 22)

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.Vrish.

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 31 October 2011 at 11:59am | IP Logged
Vibs

Thanks for weighing in.  I too recall reading about Madrinandan Sahadev marrying Jarasandha's daughter after Bhima killed him.  I didn't know that he married his maternal cousin like Arjun did.  Also, I thought that Karenamati was Sishupala's sister, not daughter.  If one thinks about it, Krishna was a few months older to Arjun, and ~ 1-2 years older than Nakula/Sahadev.  However, he was several years older to Sishupala - in the incident after Sishupala's birth where Krishna visits Shrutashrava and Sishupala's extra arms and third eye disappear, as prophesied, Sishupala was a baby and Krishna was a boy - this incident was probably after the killing of Kansa, and maybe before Krishna & Balarama went to their gurukul.  Point being that Nakula would have been somwhat older than Sishupala, and if Karenamati was his younger sister, Nakula would be at an appropriate age to be her husband.  But Sishupala's daughter would have been too young for Nakula.

Okay, by now, since it's probably clear that Karna won't be one of the characters in this serial any more than Ugrasena or Pradhyumna, I think that this thread is the right one to continue discussing him, since he'll be no more than a side discussion as far as this serial goes.  Unless he suddenly turns up from Anga @ Duryodhan's request.  As Vik might say, they probably haven't selected an actor for Karna if that is the case.

Two questions came up in my mind while reading this discussion b/w Vaarali and Vibs:
  1. Duryodhan crowned Karna as the ruler of Anga (which in today's geographical equivalent would be North Bengal, just east of Magadha and Mithila, and West of Narakasura/Bhagadatta's Pragjyotisha (incidentally, in a recent visit to Guwahati, I've noticed the Pragjyotisha name being used in some businesses).  One of the things Yudhisthira regretted after finding out about Karna was that Karna couldn't sit on the throne of Hastinapur that was rightfully his, and when Krishna met Karna and revealed to him the secret of his birth, he too had offered Karna the kingdom, but Karna declined.  So this made me curious - is there any documented account about Karna's reign of Anga?  B'cos everywhere I read about him, he was always in the company of Duryodhan.  And it made me curious - if he was Anga raj, what was he doing in Hastinapur that Kunti could visit him when she needed?  Shouldn't Karna have been reigning in Anga?  Did he ever actually rule there, and if not, who managed it?  And any achievements as the ruler of Anga (and no, conquering everything the Pandavas conquered, but this time for Duryodhan, doesn't count)
  2. Question to Vaarali (or anyone else who knows) about Vrishaketu - when the Pandavas discovered how they had wronged Karna and decided to make amends by adopting Vrishaketu, why didn't they give him his father's kingdom - Anga?  I can understand that they decided to give the throne of the empire to the matrimonial product of the Pandavas & the Yadavas i.e. Abhimanyu's descendants.  But Karna too was a legitimate king of a kingdom, and following his death, if he did have a surviving son in Vrishaketu, shouldn't the latter have automatically succeeded him?  Yudhisthir could have sent Yuyutsu or Sahadev w/ him to help him manage, and transition him into starting a dynasty in his father's name, so I'm just curious as to why that was overlooked
Another thing I found interesting is that Radha gave birth to several sons after Karna was adopted, but none of them followed their father's path, but all of them fought and died in the war on the Kaurava side.  Considering a lot of folk dramas that have been staged depicting Karna as a victim of castei policies, this factoid seems to belie the contention in some of these plays that caste based discrimination was so abusive in the Dwapar Yuga that sutas and other such people had a miserable existence.  Not so, if Karna's brothers, who were not sons of Kunti, could be accepted as warriors.

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vanadhi

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vanadhi

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Posted: 08 November 2011 at 1:31am | IP Logged
hi frds 
ITs long time iam back here to ask another question .
does the descendants of lord krishna still alive 
because recently i have gone through a film 7 am Arivu(7th SENCE tamil movie) 
In which genetic memory of Monk Boddi darma is Reinvoked  through his decend ants. if that possible why not we caliber roots of Lord Sree Krishna  , lord ram ,to find the exact traces of our powerful social heritage
.But the kingly people surviving in this century or totally different roots of muguals,rajputs,palis and many local attires .what u people think about this.

if we common people survivable to this extent ,why not the divine dna 's too?     
 


Edited by vanadhi - 08 November 2011 at 4:27am

varaali

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varaali

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Posted: 08 November 2011 at 1:44am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.


  1. Duryodhan crowned Karna as the ruler of Anga (which in today's geographical equivalent would be North Bengal, just east of Magadha and Mithila, and West of Narakasura/Bhagadatta's Pragjyotisha (incidentally, in a recent visit to Guwahati, I've noticed the Pragjyotisha name being used in some businesses).  One of the things Yudhisthira regretted after finding out about Karna was that Karna couldn't sit on the throne of Hastinapur that was rightfully his, and when Krishna met Karna and revealed to him the secret of his birth, he too had offered Karna the kingdom, but Karna declined.  So this made me curious - is there any documented account about Karna's reign of Anga?  B'cos everywhere I read about him, he was always in the company of Duryodhan.  And it made me curious - if he was Anga raj, what was he doing in Hastinapur that Kunti could visit him when she needed?  Shouldn't Karna have been reigning in Anga?  Did he ever actually rule there, and if not, who managed it?  And any achievements as the ruler of Anga (and no, conquering everything the Pandavas conquered, but this time for Duryodhan, doesn't count

The kingdom of Hastinapur could not have been rightfully Karna's. Karna was not a descendant  of Emperor Bharat. He was not a Kuru vanshi. He was born to Kunti who later entered the Kuru family. Therefore, Karna had no inherent right over the Kuru throne. What Krishna would have meant when trying to persuade karna to switch sides was that once Yudhishthir comes to know that he has an elder brother, he would accede the throne to him (karna), his lineage not withstanding.

Regarding his reign as king of Anga- IIRC, the principality of Anga was conferred to Duryodhan, who later offered it to Karna. Thus, Anga would have been at best a principality, within the Kuru Dominion. I don't think it was an independent kingdom, at this time at least. So Karna's presence would not have been required 24/7. Karna would have been just a titular head.  

What should have caused greater worry was Shakuni's presence in Hastinapur. Despite being the king of Gandhar, did he leave the actual  running of affairs to his brothers?


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varaali

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varaali

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Posted: 08 November 2011 at 2:03am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

  1. Question to Vaarali (or anyone else who knows) about Vrishaketu - when the Pandavas discovered how they had wronged Karna and decided to make amends by adopting Vrishaketu, why didn't they give him his father's kingdom - Anga?  I can understand that they decided to give the throne of the empire to the matrimonial product of the Pandavas & the Yadavas i.e. Abhimanyu's descendants.  But Karna too was a legitimate king of a kingdom, and following his death, if he did have a surviving son in Vrishaketu, shouldn't the latter have automatically succeeded him?  Yudhisthir could have sent Yuyutsu or Sahadev w/ him to help him manage, and transition him into starting a dynasty in his father's name, so I'm just curious as to why that was overlooked 
There is no reason why Vrishketu would not have been given his father's kingdom- Anga, though there is no written evidence. What we have been told is that he accompanied Bhima and Arjuna during the Ashwamedha campaigns. I also read somewhere that he perfected his archery skills under Arjuna- and Arjuna who did not have the chance to teach his own sons,-assuaged his own grief by teaching everything to Vrishketu- including the use of Brahmastra.

But Anga, was even during Dritarashtra's times a vassal state within the Kuru kingdom. The situation wold not have changed after the War, when even more kings accepted Yudhishthir's suzerainity.  So even if Vrishketu was crowned king of Anga, he would have remained a vassal of the Pandavas.



Edited by varaali - 08 November 2011 at 11:45pm

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.Vrish.

varaali

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varaali

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Posted: 08 November 2011 at 2:09am | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.


Another thing I found interesting is that Radha gave birth to several sons after Karna was adopted, but none of them followed their father's path, but all of them fought and died in the war on the Kaurava side.  Considering a lot of folk dramas that have been staged depicting Karna as a victim of castei policies, this factoid seems to belie the contention in some of these plays that caste based discrimination was so abusive in the Dwapar Yuga that sutas and other such people had a miserable existence.  Not so, if Karna's brothers, who were not sons of Kunti, could be accepted as warriors.

II don't think it was so bad in practical life. The only serious limitation (which was adhered to) was they could marry only within their caste. Look at the reception which Suta Goswami gets at Naimisharnya where he narrates the Srimad Bhagavatham. He was certainly held in high esteem.

And why weren't Yayati and Devyani's sons referred to as Sutas? Just because Shukracharya exempted their union from the restriction (that a maiden of a higher caste could not marry a Man of lower caste)?


Edited by varaali - 08 November 2011 at 2:24am

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vanadhi

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vanadhi

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Posted: 08 November 2011 at 4:25am | IP Logged
"The kingdom of Hastinapur could not have been rightfully Karna's.
 Karna was not a descendant  of Emperor Bharat. He was not a Kuru vanshi. 
He was born to Kunti who later entered the Kuru family".
Exactly is that the case then ,i have a doubt yar ..what rightfulness does Dhritarashtra and pandu had
because they are adopted sons of vichitravirya by royal family , were fathered by sage vyasa(who is the son Satyavati,sage Parashara).
there no direct descendend here to .where pandu had a curse that when tried to intimate with a girl he would die(thats reason behind his early death).
So all pandavas are sons five elements or demigods(darma, vayu,indra,Ashwini Kumar twins)
So here also there no direct  dna descendants kuru clan.
So including Karna all the pandavas are related to kundi and Madri itself not any male. Mahabaratha story is disgusting here too...Confused
how can we claim that vamsha clan etc upon them 


Edited by vanadhi - 08 November 2011 at 4:26am

.Vrish.

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.Vrish.

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Posted: 08 November 2011 at 4:42am | IP Logged
Originally posted by varaali

The kingdom of Hastinapur could not have been rightfully Karna's. Karna was not a descendant  of Emperor Bharat. He was not a Kuru vanshi. He was born to Kunti who later entered the Kuru family. Therefore, Karna had no inherent right over the Kuru throne. What Krishna would have meant when trying to persuade karna to switch sides was that once Yudhishthir comes to know that he has an elder brother, he would accede the throne to him (karna), his lineage not withstanding.

Regarding his reign as king of Anga- IIRC, the principality of Anga was conferred to Duryodhan, who later offered it to Karna. Thus, Anga would have been at best a principality, within the Kuru Dominion. I don't think it was an independent kingdom, at this time at least. So Karna's presence would not have been required 24/7. Karna would have been just a titular head.  

What should have caused greater worry was Shakuni's presence in Hastinapur. Despite being the king of Gandhar, did he leave the actual  running of affairs to his brothers?

I think that is what he did for much of the time.  Although, after the Pandavas went into exile, did Shakuni remain in Hastinapur?  I thought that he was in Gandhara, and only returned when negotiations were going on over the restoration of the Pandava kingdom.

On Karna's legitimacy to the throne, when Krishna met him, he mentioned that as per shastric law, if a woman has a child out of wedlock and later marries, that child's father is the woman's husband.  So Karna's status as a Kaurava wouldn't have been in doubt, had Kunti fessed up at the tournament that Karna was none other than her son.  Even when Krishna offered Karna the throne, and have everybody, including himself, as his attendants, it was clear that Karna would trump both Yudhisthir & Duryodhan as Dhritarashtra's yuvraj.  I think Duryodhan may have been fine w/ that, but not Dhritarashtra.  But as far as the Pandavas went, had Kunti gone public about Karna's identity, he'd automatically have become the chief of the Pandavas, above even Yudhisthir.  Only problem, as Karna told Krishna, was that if he was offered the kingdom, he'd turn it over to Duryodhan, and that would be a travesty of justice.

About Anga, my point was that it was nowhere near Hastinapur, even if it was a dependency province: it was North Bengal, whereas Hastinapur is where Meerut is.  So the Kauravas would have needed a governor there, and since they had made Karna its ruler, Karna's dutiful place would have been there, not Hastinapur.  Maybe Karna turned this job over to his brothers, or sons?  Maybe Vrishasena ran it?

Originally posted by varaali

There is no reason why Vrishketu would not have been given his father's kingdom- Anga, though there is no written evidence. What we have been told is that he accompanied Bhima and Arjuna during the Ashwamedha campaigns. I also read somewhere that he perfected his archery skills under Arjuna- and Arjuna who did not have the chance to teach his own sons,-assuaged his own grief by teaching everything to Vrishketu- including the use of Brahmastra.

But Anga, was even during Dritarashtra's times a vassal state within the Kuru kingdom. The situation wold not have changed after the War, when even more kings accepted Yudhishthir's suzerainity.  So even if Vrishketu was crowned king of Anga, he would have remained a vassal of the Pandavas.

I wasn't suggesting that Vrishaketu be made independent, although after the Kurukshetra war, w/ all the kings & princes dead, every kingdom was a vassal of the Pandavas.  Anga would have been no different from Kosala, Pragjyotisha, Magadha, Chedi, Madra, Matsya, et al.

Only reason for not giving Angad to Vrishaketu would have been that it would symbolize a non-acceptance into the Pandava clan.  After all, Karna was given Anga to get over Kripa's objections to his facing Arjun in battle, since protocol rules dictated that only warriors of compatible status could fight, and b'cos he was not recognized as a Kuru or someone equivalent in status.  Had Vrishaketu been given the same kingdom, it may have risked symbolizing the same thing - his non acceptance as a Pandava.  Which may be why the Pandavas just adopted him as their own son and kept him w/ them.

Originally posted by varaali

II don't think it was so bad in practical life. The only serious limitation (which was adhered to) was they could marry only within their caste. Look at the reception which Suta Goswami gets at Naimisharnya where he narrates the Srimad Bhagavatham. He was certainly held in high esteem.

And why weren't Yayati and Devyani's sons referred to as Sutas? Just because Shukracharya exempted their union from the restriction (that a maiden of a higher caste could not marry a Man of lower caste)?

I know that the marriage of Devyani & Yayati was a pratiloma/upaloma marriage (I've forgotten which means which), but I didn't know that the sons would be known as sutas.  I thought they automatically assume the caste of the father.  Reason Shukracharya allowed this was that Devyani was given a curse by Kacha that no brahmin would ever marry her.

varaali

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varaali

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Posted: 08 November 2011 at 11:52pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by .Vrish.

 But as far as the Pandavas went, had Kunti gone public about Karna's identity, he'd automatically have become the chief of the Pandavas, above even Yudhisthir.  


Karna would not have automatically become the chief of Pandavas. To become so, he would have had to been formally adopted by Pandu. With Pandu dead, this opportunity was lost to both Karna and Kunti. 

In case Pandu had died without sons, then Karna , as a kanini son, would have been given the right to perform the last rites. 

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