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Ginny and harry as a couple??!!! (Page 6)

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ShadowKisses

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ShadowKisses

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Posted: 18 April 2009 at 6:59pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by shellytt

@ Shadowkisses, I'm reading the passages you've pulled reagarding Ginny, and it may just be me, but I get the sense that Ginny's character (and actions) are a bit reminiscent of Fred and George. Her antics and comments though "sounding mean" can also be looked at in the air of humour, that we often read about when the twins are mentioned. She seems to be very similar to the twins, also in her interation with Ron, who often made snide, seemingly mean comments to Ron, but we accepted accempted those in the context of sibling rivlary and teasing so why can't be think of Ginny's comments in the same light.
 
From what I can tell, all of remarks I've cited regarding Ginny are certainly meant to be funny (as shown by the numerous times people laugh at her degrading Fleur as if it's the funniest thing everErmm) but in my opinion, they really aren't. I'm no authority on humour but sincerely, her comments don't appear all that funny. An example would be like that of Fleur. Some of her comments are snobby and they are intended to be. Most of Ginny's comments post-GoF are meant to be funny but they come across as condescending to me. Even at the end of HBP, it's Molly who Fleur tells off, Molly who offers a peace offering. Ginny isn't even forced to make a peace offering. She does not suffer the consequences of her actions (a contrast to Fred/George who are usually told off for the pranks that go too far etc). Ginny is portrayed to be "smart and funny" for actions that another character has to apologize for.Thing is Ginny's behaviour wouldn't come out so terrible if someone called her out on it or if people stopped praising her infantile behaviour, but no one (not even Hermione) does; hence, her Mary Sue-like traits. 
 
Originally posted by shellytt

Also, her running into Zacharias seemed to be a Fred and George type move (IMO).
 

I would agree that it might have been a Fred/George type of move but Fred and George are genuinely funny - they are jokers after all. But for Ginny, who is portrayed to be so serious and tough after GoF, to crash into someone else on a whim doesn't quite come across in the same manner as it would have had Fred and George pulled a prank. Also, Fred and George almost ALWAYS face the consequences of their actions; Ginny doesn't. She tries to be the third twin but she comes off as obnoxious and rude because she is praised for her child-like behavior and does not have to face the consequence that regular characters do. Her sense of humour isn't all that funny; it's juvenile as shown by her use of puerile words such as "cow", "phlegm", "idiot" numerous times.
 
Originally posted by shellytt

Regarding her falling asleep during an intense Quidditch discussion in GoF, I think that had more to do do with tiredness than with actual boredom. Remember it was an exciting and exhausting day all round for her (getting up before the sun was up, walking a distance to take the portkey, getting settled at the grounds, the entire match and then the post match excitement would have diffentinety taken a toll on the 13 year old girl. So just because she fell asleep doesn't prove that she's not  interested in Quidditch, as much as Hermoine. I can understand however, how are comments can be construed as "mean", however, I won't go so far to say, that she thought that the Sceptesempra (spelled incorrectly I know) was good. She never said that. Hermoine suggested it, however Ginny didn't say that it was good. I know the comment can be made that she didn't disagree with Hermoine either, but I don't get the sense that she believed that the spell was good, but at that point in time she didn't feel it was necessary to judge and reproach Harry for his actions.
 
I disagree. Before OOTP, there's little evidence that Ginny is at all involved in Quidditch. I would accept that Ginny fell asleep because she was tired if not for her lack of reaction during the actual Quidditch match. In OOTP we are told that:
George: "Actually, I dunno how she's [Ginny] got so good [in Quidditch], seeing how we never let her play with us..."

"She's been breaking into your broom shed in the garden since the age of six and taking each of your brooms out in turn when you weren't looking," said Hermione from behind her tottering pile of Ancient Rune books. (US. Edition 574)
This is a direct contradiction to how Ginny is in GoF:
"Mum,. no one at the bank gives a damn how I dress as long as I bring home plenty of treasure," said Bill patiently.
 "And your hair's getting silly, dear," said Mrs. Weasley, fingering her wand
lovingly." I wish you'd let me give it a trim..."
"I like it," said Ginny, who was sitting beside Bill. "You're so old-fashioned, Mum.
Anyway, it's nowhere near as long as Professor Dumbledore's..."

Next to Mrs. Weasley, Fred, George, and Charlie were all talking spiritedly about the World Cup.
"It's got to be Ireland," said Charlie thickly, through a mouthful of potato. "They
flattened Peru in the semifinals."
"Bulgaria has got Viktor Krum, though," said Fred.
"Krum's one decent player, Ireland has got seven," said Charlie shortly. "I wish
England had got through. That was embarrassing, that was." (US.Ed. 64)
While there is a very intense discussion regarding Quidditch that is happening right next to her, Ginny is talking to Molly. The conversation goes on for longer than what I pointed out and at no point does Ginny, who is SO good at Quidditch - who loves Quidditch so much that she's been sneaking into her brother's closet at age six when normal children wouldn't be able to tell a decent lie -  pipe up with her opinion. That she would rather discuss Bill's hair is telling of the fact that she isn't all that into Quidditch. The stronger examples of Ginny's lack of interest in Quidditch occur later in the book during the Quidditich World Cup game. She does not shout. She does not scream. She does not cheer for any of the teams. Rather abnormal behaviour for a Quidditch lover, don't you think? The only thing she does display is horror at Aidan Lynch falling into the ground (108). Ironically enough, it is Hermione who is cheering wildly. The same Hermione who post-GoF!Ginny deems should not talk about Qudditch as she will only end up embarrassing herself. Coming back to the example I gave before, OOTP's passionate Ginny wouldn't fall asleep if there was a very interesting Quidditch discussion going on right beside her. This girl who shows so little passion for Quidditch during one of the international quidditch games is meant to be the Quidditch Queen who is discovered in OOTP? Yeah right and live pigs can fly.
That was a direct quote ;) I wasn't exaggerating:
Passage from HBP - Chapter 24 "Sectumsempra" pg. 530 U.S. Edition:
"Give it a rest, Hermione!" said Ginny, and Harry was so amazed, so grateful, he looked up. "By the sound of it, Malfoy was trying to use an Unforgivable Curse, you should be glad Harry had something good up his sleeve!"
"Well, of course I'm glad Harry wasn't cursed!" said Hermione, clearly stung. "But you can't call that Sectumsempra spell good, Ginny, look where it's landed him! And I'd have thought, seeing what this has done to your chances in the match " "Oh, don't start acting as though you understand Quidditch," snapped Ginny, "you'll only embarrass yourself."
If that isn't insulting someone, I don't know what is. And yet the same person who calls Ron a 'hypocrite', still manages to be indignant with Fleur (and later mocks her) for taking down to her even though throughout the latter half of the book, she talks insults people who are elder to her.

I would have accepted the argument that she was growing tired of Hermione reprimanding Harry had she not shown righteous anger before at Ron for Demelza's fat lip (She calls him a prat). True that the injured party in this case was someone none of them were fond of, however, Demelza's lip was fixed in minutes while Draco was taken to the Hospital Wing after Harry's attack. Ron is responsible for what he does but Harry, who almost killed a schoolmate, doesn't deserve to be reprimanded by Hermione? Consider that for a minute. Harry nearly killed a student because of a foolish mistake and he doesn't deserve to be reprimanded for it? Hermione was starting to gear up for a lecture that Harry truly deserved but Ginny cuts her off, insulting her in the process.

Originally posted by shellytt

On a side note, Ginny's outburst "hurt" Hermoine, which is sort of a subtle indication of their friendship. Also another note, I just wasnt to clarify that though Hermoine and Ginny were good friends, I never menat to allude that thier level of friendship matched that of Harry and Ron. I was merely stating, that of girl companions Ginny was the closest thing to a best friend she had. Harry and Ron were her true best friends, no disputing that.
 
Oh okay. I was just a bit confused about that ;) Thank you for clearing it.

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shellytt

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Posted: 18 April 2009 at 7:10pm | IP Logged

Here are some quites in defense of Harry\Ginny AND Ginny

HBP CHAPTER:THE WHITE TOMB

Ginny: "I never really gave up on you" she said. "Not really. I always hoped.... Hermoine told me to get on with my life, maybe go out with some other people, relax a bit around you because I never used to be able to talk if you were in the room, remember? And she though you might take a bit more notice if I was  a bit more - myself."

Smart Girl, that Hermoine, said Harry trying to smile. I just wish I'd asked you sooner. We could've had ages.. months... years maybe..."
 
"But you've been too busy saving the wizarding world. said Ginny, half laughing. Well .. I can't say I'm surprised, I knew this would happen in the end. I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were hunting Voldermort. Maybe that's why I like you so much."
 
 
Another instance that showed trust and love was when Ginny came to him whilst he was sitting at Dumbledore's body. Noone could convince Harry to move, but a simple  " Come on Harry" and a touch from Ginny, gave Harry the strenght to leave his mentor's side without a thought, that this was the right thing to do, and the knowledge that that touch was linked with support.
 
Another instance of kindness shown by Ginny (and if I'm not mistaken its in OOTP) is her defense of Luna. I have to go search for the actual scene but I know she had defended Luna and her peculiar ways. The situation eludes me at the moment, but it did show Ginny's kind side.
 
 

sareeta

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Posted: 20 April 2009 at 11:51pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by -Neetz-

I never seemed to like Harry/Ginny as a couple too much. Like ShadowKisses mentioned, there was hardly any development to justify the fact that they could sustain their relationship as a couple.
 
Someone said that Ginny knows how it feels to be possesed by Voldermort, Agreed, but the fact remains that she has almost always never been a part of Harry's struggle against Voldermort ( Excluding OOTP, where the entire DA was present ), They have hardly "discussed" these matters either. She knows how it feels, but does she know Harry ?
 
I think it needs much more than a similar experience for a relationship to last. There is nothing concrete in their bond.


Sorry to gate crash into the discussion quite late, but I've been catching up on all the replies to the most and the one thing that struck me, right from the word go and that has been so kindly mentioned out by Neetz and ShadowKisses is that why is the Ginny being possessed by Voldy being made out as a foundation for the understanding between harry and Ginny? I dont think it ever was, let alone being discussed, I don't think it would have mattered even if Ginny was not possessed by Voldy.

As I see it, Ginny just grew up and while she did, she understood, that Harry the super famous boy, the boy who lived, would be happy, only when he had finally hunted voldy down, his arch nemesis. She does say it to him - "May be thats why I liked you so much!" Its just her growing up and her feelings what started as seemingly a crush were revealed to be lot deeper! That , that Ginny was once possessed by Voldemort was just an incident , but it did nothing to Ginny- Harry relation of find soulmates in each other!

Just my two cents!

And oh, I do have a lot more to say , on Ginny's sense of humor, but at the moment have to dash, and will get back and add more!

Shelly / Lalitha - Loved reading your comments and agree on mos tof the aspects, except dare I say the one I've written about above!

ShadowKisses

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Posted: 21 April 2009 at 4:00pm | IP Logged

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

The only passage (out of the ones you listed) which I found Ginny being "mean" was the first one. Honestly, everything else wasn't really mean, and as for "Phlegm", Hermione also called Fleur that. So unless you want to say Hermione also had a mean streak, I don't think that counts for much.

I haven't got much far in the "An Excess of Phlegm" chapter but as far as I have got, Hermione does not call Fleur "phlegm" (if you could cite the passage where she does, I'll retract this statement) Ginny does. Along with "cow". She doesn't apologize for her actions later even though Molly who has treated Fleur just as badly as Ginny does. She mocks her future-sister-in-law which not only reflects a degree of immaturity but also shows that Ginny is a Mary Sue.  

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

As for Ginny sticking up for Harry when he used Sectumsempra on Mafloy, Malfoy had almost done uttering the "Crucio" curse. While I completely agree that what Harry did was wrong, Harry used Sectumsempra as a form of defense. He did not know it was a terrible curse. 

*Almost* used the Crucio however, it isn't known for a fact that the curse would have worked seeing as the book's later events (and DH where he reluctantly admits that it might be them) efficiently demonstrate that Malfoy does possess a level of humanity/morality. Crucio causes torture of the worst kind *IF* the castor intends it (and we do not know enough about Draco's psyche to know if Draco truly *means* the curse); Sectumsempra leads to death. That Harry nearly killed a student is far worse than a snobby pureblood elitist with a one dimensional persona (at that point in the series, anyway) using one of the Unforgivable curses. I'm not saying what Malfoy did was in any way, shape or form right (his actions were ethically wrong however, his motivations may have been somewhat justified given that Harry does the same thing in DH and that was considered okay) but the crux of the matter is that Harry almost killed another student.

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

While Malfoy knew what the Crucio did, and the pain it would cause another human being, he went along with it, and was almost done uttering the curse when Harry said the first curse that came to his mind in self defense. I am not defending Harry, but the intentions were different here. Harry did not know the consequences of the Sectumsempra Curse, and he was rightly punished for it, first by the horror he saw when Malfoy was oozing blood, and then by the punishment Snape gave him. However, he did not use Sectumsempra to cause pain to Malfoy, but to defend himself. He put too much faith in the mysterious Half Blood Prince (I agree it was foolish and stupid of him), because he had always helped him in the past. He did not believe the HBP could write anything so gross and harmful in his book, and when he saw what happened to Malfoy, he did regret what he had done.

See here's where I nitpick - Who is to say Draco's curse would have worked? For any unforgivable curse to work, the castor has to truly want to cause the pain and considering Draco's fragile frame of mind, it is more likely that he wouldn't have been able to cast a proper Cruciatius curse. Also, Harry was aware that the Prince's curse "levicorpus" wasn't exactly the best curses of all. That should have been proof enough that the Prince's curses weren't exactly the sort that he should be meddling with. Even Harry is smart enough to realize that. 

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

And as for Hermione lecturing Harry on getting the HBP's book back, she didn't do it for any noble reason. She was annoyed and slightly jealous that Harry was getting good marks in Potions, for once better than her. I admit that following the Half Blood Prince all the time was a bit foolish, but it was a Potions book, Slughorn gave it to Harry himself, and Harry never really cheated in Potions. He just followed a different srt of instructions.

I've got my own issues with Hermione's characterization in HBP and subsequently DH, ones that have nothing to do with this topic but I honestly think she was justified in rebuking Harry for his use of the textbook. Look at it from her point of view - She works hard to get where she is. She studies harder than most in her year and for someone so dedicated to studying to see a person finding the easier way out and getting credit for the stuff that isn't even theirs is academically unethical. It remains to be seen what she would have done had she been given the textbook so it can't be said that she was jealous of the book being Harry's. She was merely frustrated that even though she worked twice as hard as Harry, he was better in that subject than her for doing something that wasn't even his own work.

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

and you proved us with the rest of the argument. I noticed that you conveniently forgot to add Hermione's annoying slightly jealous remark to Harry and skipped right to Ginny's "mean-spirited" remark. Hermione's "reputation you don't deserve..." She was acting as if Harry used his wand to conjure a potion or something.

Like Ron said, he simply used different rules. It just irked her that for once, someone other than her got the fame in class. How is that not mean-spiritedness if Ginny defending someone she cared about was mean-spiritedness?

It wasn't left out, out of convenience; it merely had nothing to do with what I was trying to prove. Ginny's attitude stank in that scene and it had little to do with Hermione's prior comment. Hermione's attitude was not deliberately harmful; it was justified given that Harry didn't work all that hard to achieve "the fame", a rather undeserved one at that, in Potions class. Her comment was resentful, not malicious like Ginny's was intended to be. Take into note that "nastily" was told in Harry's narration which is wildly biased.  Also, I disagree that Hermione wouldn't have done it out of a noble reason primarily because of the time in PoA where Draco is hit by Buckbeak and she tells Hagrid that he should be taken to the Hospital Wing. The Hermione I know and adore (pre-HBP & DH) is MORE than capable of showing compassion towards others, no matter how despicable the other party may be.

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

There are an equal amount of "mean-spirit" remarks by Hermione as Ginny throughout the books. Honestly, if you're looking for a perfectly nice person, there's only Luna like that. She never insulted anyone, and her sweetness was one of her best qualities. But not everyone's same. While she had sweetness, her fault was being feather-brained. Sometimes, Hermione was very thoughtless with what she said, but like Ginny, she's a loveable character who I still like a lot because that's her fault; her biggest fault was her pride, and Ginny's biggest fault was the annoyance she felt when someone she loved was being insulted when it was not "fully" his fault. 

You claimed there are an equal amount of malevolent remarks by Ginny and Hermione - could you please point out some scenes where Hermione is relatively as spiteful as Ginny was without reason? I'm not looking for a perfectly nice person - sometimes one does lose temper, nothing wrong with occasionally snapping at others (I'd be lying if I said that Hermione can't get annoying sometimes) but when every other word that slips from the mouth is insulting "humor", well that isn't so good either.

How wasn't it completely Harry's fault? Did he not cast the spell? His actions nearly cost another student his life.  Hermione was not "insulting" Harry; she was chastising him for nearly killing another student. Huge difference. You stated that Hermione's pride is her fault - and I agree it is, along with her know-it-all attitude. It is a flaw because the books portray pride as Hermione's character flaw (along with other qualities) however, Ginny's so-called "annoyance" is not portrayed as a flaw. Her "annoyance" is something that Harry is "grateful" for. So, how it figures as a flaw is beyond me. A flaw is typically characterized by the three categories of observer: other characters, author and reader. Ginny's flaw fits neither into the characters, nor did the author (read any of Rowling's interviews on MN/TLC 2005 onwards). Perhaps a pseudo-flaw, yes, not a character flaw though. A character flaw of the younger Ginny (pre-OOTP) would be her tendency to "never shut up" as Ron stated in CoS. It is flaw because the character and by extension, the author sees and portrays it as one and the readers will infer it as one. You'd be hard-pressed to find a flaw in Ginny that was intended as such.

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

As for Ginny insulting Zabini, can you please provide more of that passage (witha few lines on what Zabini said) instead of only concentrating on what Ginny said? Because it's hard analyzing someone's character based on only their lines alone, and leaving out the lines of thoese around them. And as you said, your personal preference for Zabini may have come in the way of your judgment of Ginny. After all, we all have character preferences, and if that character is hurt or insulted, we generally will not like the person who insulted or hurt him. With that logic, we can say Hermione was mean because she punched Malfoy in the face and broke his nose (an awesome move by Hermione by the way) in the third book, but Malfoy deserved what he got, just like Zabini (sorry), so I don't find either Hermione or Ginny "mean". They're both wonderful characters in their own way and both have different faults despite which we (at least I) still love them.

It wasn't Zabini that I prefer (not the canon one anyways, I prefer fandom's Zabini to Rowling's mostly because Rowling never bothered to develop him or the other Slytherins much) - it was Zacharias Smith, from Hufflepuff. Hermione had reason to punch Malfoy; her love for Buckbeak and Draco's bratty behavior were reason enough. Also, Hermione at most would have broken Malfoy's nose; Ginny could have caused more drastic damage given that she flew into the podium and shrapnel could have embedded itself in his epidermis. There was also the fact that Malfoy insulted Hagrid numerous times ("oaf" etc) while Zacharias was merely questioning her . However, Ginny had no such motivation. She hexed Smith because she felt like it:

"He saw me hex Zacharias Smith," said Ginny. "You remember that idiot from Hufflepuff who was in the D.A.? He kept on and on asking about what happened at the Ministry and in the end he annoyed me so much I hexed him ? when Slughorn came in I thought I was going to got detention, but he just thought it was a really good hex and invited me to lunch! Mad, eh?" (HBP - p. 147 U.S. Ed.-- There is no further demonstration of this scene)

I really don't think you can compare this with Draco's incident. Draco was at fault, Zacharias wasn't. Zacharias did not deserve to be hexed for not blindly believing the Daily Prophet. Further more, he certainly did not deserve to be slammed into a podium merely because Ginny felt like it.

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

I honestly don't see how Ginny is a Mary-Sue character. She has plenty of faults, and she has plenty of good qualities, just like Hermione. Sometimes, I found Luna a Mary-Sue character, but only at times, because it seemed as if she had no faults except for being feather-brained. She was almost perfect.
 

A Mary Sue isn't a character who is only defined by having no flaws. A Mary Sue is someone who is meant to serve as a wish-fulfillment character and as such, has no flaws & has extraordinary qualities (Quidditch, bat-bogey hex, fantastic sense of humor etc). Ginny fits the criteria. Ginny has no flaws post GoF - and even if they are flaws, they are portrayed as qualities a la Isabella Swan and her clumsiness which is oh-so-endearing. What she does wrong never has any consequences for her even though other characters need to apologize for an action that is just like hers. She is always right in telling people off. Extra-beautiful - should I go on? You stated that Ginny had flaws - name one post GoF. A flaw that is meant to be a flaw by authorial intent, not a flaw that is white-washed as endearing. For instance, Ron's volatile temper is a character flaw - it is regard by characters, authors and readers as one; Isabella Swan's clumsiness is not - neither characters nor the author regard it as one. I might have agreed with your assessment of Luna had she been portrayed as the coolest thing to hit Hogwarts like Ginny is. Luna isn't all powerful like Ginny is (post-GoF), plus she has to face the consequences of her actions unlike Ginny. Luna isn't portrayed to be overly witty or strikingly beautiful as Ginny is (numerous references to Ginny's outer beauty in OOTP, HBP etc ). She doesn't fill the wish-fulfillment critera; hence, no Mary Sue-ness there.

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

While you may say you cannot see any good qualities in Ginny, that's your own opinion about how you interpreted her character as written by JK Rowling, but I interpreted her differently, as do other people who love Ginny. What we feel does not make something a fact.

The word "feelings" connotes sentimentality which is far removed from interpretation. My interpretation is based on JKR showed, what she told (in books and in interviews) and what she didn't, not some "feeling". While I'm not saying what is stated above are facts - they are interpretations, as yours are, of events that took place in the books.


Edited by ShadowKisses - 21 April 2009 at 4:07pm

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shellytt

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Posted: 22 April 2009 at 7:18am | IP Logged
@Lalitha,  that article that you posted was brilliant!. Thanks for it!

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Posted: 22 April 2009 at 1:12pm | IP Logged
Wow ShadowKisses you are brilliant at writing.
I rarely visit this forum but reading your posts have been a revelation.
wonderfully dispassionate and factual - well done!

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Posted: 22 April 2009 at 5:57pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by ShadowKisses

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

The only passage (out of the ones you listed) which I found Ginny being "mean" was the first one. Honestly, everything else wasn't really mean, and as for "Phlegm", Hermione also called Fleur that. So unless you want to say Hermione also had a mean streak, I don't think that counts for much.

I haven't got much far in the "An Excess of Phlegm" chapter but as far as I have got, Hermione does not call Fleur "phlegm" (if you could cite the passage where she does, I'll retract this statement) Ginny does. Along with "cow". She doesn't apologize for her actions later even though Molly who has treated Fleur just as badly as Ginny does. She mocks her future-sister-in-law which not only reflects a degree of immaturity but also shows that Ginny is a Mary Sue. Okay, I have just referred to the "Excess of Phlegm" chapter and you're right. Hermione does not call Fleur 'Phlegm", but she agreed with whatver Ginny said, which is just as "bad". And seriously, how many 15 year old girls do you know are not immature? I can honestly understand how Ginny and Hermione felt. At the age of 15, I too would not like people talking to me like I was a five year old, and there's never a rule anywhere that one must love their sister-in-law, especially someone stuck up like Fleur. And if everyone who "mocks" their sister-in-law is a mary-sue, I suppose the majority of us in this world are mary-sues. It seems to me that the word "mary-sue" is being over-used way too much these days. Personally, I don't feel that JK Rowling created any Mary-Sue characters in her series. Of course, not all of us will like all of them. Rowling created a vast amount of characters for people to like or dislike, but none of them are mary-sues, and calling Ginny, who is far from a mary-sue character contrary to what you wrote, would be insulting Rowling's inteligence. Honestly, I do not find this passage of Ginny's behaviour to Fleir (which reflects the behavior of many if not most 15 year old girls: not everyone is like Hermione) as a "mean-streak".    

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

As for Ginny sticking up for Harry when he used Sectumsempra on Mafloy, Malfoy had almost done uttering the "Crucio" curse. While I completely agree that what Harry did was wrong, Harry used Sectumsempra as a form of defense. He did not know it was a terrible curse. 

*Almost* used the Crucio however, it isn't known for a fact that the curse would have worked seeing as the book's later events (and DH where he reluctantly admits that it might be them) efficiently demonstrate that Malfoy does possess a level of humanity/morality. Crucio causes torture of the worst kind *IF* the castor intends it (and we do not know enough about Draco's psyche to know if Draco truly *means* the curse); Sectumsempra leads to death. That Harry nearly killed a student is far worse than a snobby pureblood elitist with a one dimensional persona (at that point in the series, anyway) using one of the Unforgivable curses. I'm not saying what Malfoy did was in any way, shape or form right (his actions were ethically wrong however, his motivations may have been somewhat justified given that Harry does the same thing in DH and that was considered okay) but the crux of the matter is that Harry almost killed another student. And here comes the discussion on which is worse: death or torture, which is a highly opinionated argument. While Harry's sectumsempra could have killed Malfoy, Malfoy's crucio could have caused Harry pain beyond anything he felt before. And saying Malfoy's crucio "may not have worked" is the same as saying "Harry did not know what the sectumsempra did". Both were on equal ground on this one. Whether or not it may have worked, Malfoy was going to use crucio, and whether or not Harry did or did not know what the sectumsempra curse did, he did use it, and both were properly punished.   

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

While Malfoy knew what the Crucio did, and the pain it would cause another human being, he went along with it, and was almost done uttering the curse when Harry said the first curse that came to his mind in self defense. I am not defending Harry, but the intentions were different here. Harry did not know the consequences of the Sectumsempra Curse, and he was rightly punished for it, first by the horror he saw when Malfoy was oozing blood, and then by the punishment Snape gave him. However, he did not use Sectumsempra to cause pain to Malfoy, but to defend himself. He put too much faith in the mysterious Half Blood Prince (I agree it was foolish and stupid of him), because he had always helped him in the past. He did not believe the HBP could write anything so gross and harmful in his book, and when he saw what happened to Malfoy, he did regret what he had done.

See here's where I nitpick - Who is to say Draco's curse would have worked? If you think of it in that way, then who is to say Harry is at fault at all, because he did not know the consequences of sectumsempra? For any unforgivable curse to work, the castor has to truly want to cause the pain and considering Draco's fragile frame of mind, it is more likely that he wouldn't have been able to cast a proper Cruciatius curse. Also, Harry was aware that the Prince's curse "levicorpus" wasn't exactly the best curses of all. And Harry was also aware that without the Prince's instructions, Ron would not be alive. So what kind of person would let go of a book that saved his friend's life, even if it had one curse that wasn't exactly a good one? That should have been proof enough that the Prince's curses weren't exactly the sort that he should be meddling with. Even Harry is smart enough to realize that.  

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

And as for Hermione lecturing Harry on getting the HBP's book back, she didn't do it for any noble reason. She was annoyed and slightly jealous that Harry was getting good marks in Potions, for once better than her. I admit that following the Half Blood Prince all the time was a bit foolish, but it was a Potions book, Slughorn gave it to Harry himself, and Harry never really cheated in Potions. He just followed a different srt of instructions.

I've got my own issues with Hermione's characterization in HBP and subsequently DH, ones that have nothing to do with this topic but I honestly think she was justified in rebuking Harry for his use of the textbook. Look at it from her point of view - She works hard to get where she is. She studies harder than most in her year and for someone so dedicated to studying to see a person finding the easier way out and getting credit for the stuff that isn't even theirs is academically unethical. It remains to be seen what she would have done had she been given the textbook so it can't be said that she was jealous of the book being Harry's. She was merely frustrated that even though she worked twice as hard as Harry, he was better in that subject than her for doing something that wasn't even his own work. How did Harry not do any work? Like I said, he did not simply "conjure" his potions. He worked just as hard as Hermione to make it. He simply followed different instructions, and it says many times in the book that without Snape's unnerving presence, Harry fared far better in Potions than before, proving that he had skill which had been supressed by Snape's bullying comments in the past, and had that skill been nurtured (he did inherit skill in Potions from his mother Lily), he would have been just as good as Hermione.  

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

and you proved us with the rest of the argument. I noticed that you conveniently forgot to add Hermione's annoying slightly jealous remark to Harry and skipped right to Ginny's "mean-spirited" remark. Hermione's "reputation you don't deserve..." She was acting as if Harry used his wand to conjure a potion or something.

Like Ron said, he simply used different rules. It just irked her that for once, someone other than her got the fame in class. How is that not mean-spiritedness if Ginny defending someone she cared about was mean-spiritedness?

It wasn't left out, out of convenience; it merely had nothing to do with what I was trying to prove. Ginny's attitude stank in that scene and it had little to do with Hermione's prior comment. Hermione's attitude was not deliberately harmful; and neither was Ginny's, contrary to what you interpret her behavior as; while Hermione was sticking up for "academic integrity" and "Harry's wrongfulness after Harry was told about his punishment which really did stink", Ginny stuck up for him as any friend would. She told Hermione that Harry knew what he did was wrong, and he was bring punished for it, and it irked her that Hermione suddenly acted as if she was interested in Quidditch when she never showed that much interest before. Honestly, I would have acted the same if I was Ginny, and if you want to call me malicious for that, then fine. And it's clear from the past books that Ginny and Hermione were friends. Friends have arguments and even insult each other, as demonstrated by Ron and Harry's two big fights (once in GoF and once in DH). They call each other things that they normally would not say out of anger, but that does not make them malicious. Obviously Ginny and Hermione were friends later on, proving to us that Ginny apologzied and Hermione forgave her (even it it's not written in the book, that's how I interpret Ginny and Hermione's arguments; I know you don't think the same). it was justified given that Harry didn't work all that hard to achieve "the fame", a rather undeserved one at that, in Potions class. Her comment was resentful, not malicious like Ginny's was intended to be. Take into note that "nastily" was told in Harry's narration which is wildly biased.  Also, I disagree that Hermione wouldn't have done it out of a noble reason primarily because of the time in PoA where Draco is hit by Buckbeak and she tells Hagrid that he should be taken to the Hospital Wing. The Hermione I know and adore (pre-HBP & DH) is MORE than capable of showing compassion towards others, no matter how despicable the other party may be. Neither Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, or Ginny were the same as they were in the previous books. It's called growing up, and there are some things about all of them that are improvements, and some things that are not very likeable, but that's how Rowling wanted her characters to end up like and we should accept and like them for that, despite their faults. 

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

There are an equal amount of "mean-spirit" remarks by Hermione as Ginny throughout the books. Honestly, if you're looking for a perfectly nice person, there's only Luna like that. She never insulted anyone, and her sweetness was one of her best qualities. But not everyone's same. While she had sweetness, her fault was being feather-brained. Sometimes, Hermione was very thoughtless with what she said, but like Ginny, she's a loveable character who I still like a lot because that's her fault; her biggest fault was her pride, and Ginny's biggest fault was the annoyance she felt when someone she loved was being insulted when it was not "fully" his fault. 

You claimed there are an equal amount of malevolent remarks by Ginny and Hermione - could you please point out some scenes where Hermione is relatively as spiteful as Ginny was without reason? I'm not looking for a perfectly nice person - sometimes one does lose temper, nothing wrong with occasionally snapping at others (I'd be lying if I said that Hermione can't get annoying sometimes) but when every other word that slips from the mouth is insulting "humor", well that isn't so good either. That's just the thing. Every other word coming from Ginny's mouth isn't "insulting humor". You conveniently forget all the kind and compassionate comments Ginny makes, which are the prime reason Ginny fans love her. And it'll take me some time to come up with the "mean" comments by Hermione and "nice" comments by Ginny, but I'll post them later as I don't have my books near me.  

How wasn't it completely Harry's fault? Did he not cast the spell? His actions nearly cost another student his life.  Hermione was not "insulting" Harry; she was chastising him for nearly killing another student. Which she did not need to do. Harry already was "chastized" by Snape and McGonagall, and he was getting a punishment which rightfully would make him see the wrong he did. Quidditch was one of the things Harry loved the best, and de-captaining him was a fitting punishment. What "right" did Hermione then have to chastize him when he was already feeling terrible? Haven't you ever realized that Ron was a better friend to Harry during these times, because though he did not "support" his actions, he sympathized with his friend, and Hermione failed to do this a lot of places in the book. Huge difference. You stated that Hermione's pride is her fault - and I agree it is, along with her know-it-all attitude. It is a flaw because the books portray pride as Hermione's character flaw (along with other qualities) however, Ginny's so-called "annoyance" is not portrayed as a flaw. Her "annoyance" is something that Harry is "grateful" for. Of course Harry is grateful for it. She's the only one sympathizing with him. That doesn't mean it isn't her 'fault'. But not all the characters in the books were "grateful" for it. A flaw is something most people recognize, not one. Harry may not recognize Ginny's faults, but we as readers do (at least I and a lot of people do; don't know about you), and lots of the characters in the books do too. So, how it figures as a flaw is beyond me. A flaw is typically characterized by the three categories of observer: other characters, author and reader. Ginny's flaw fits neither into the characters, nor did the author (read any of Rowling's interviews on MN/TLC 2005 onwards). Perhaps a pseudo-flaw, yes, not a character flaw though. A character flaw of the younger Ginny (pre-OOTP) would be her tendency to "never shut up" as Ron stated in CoS. It is flaw because the character and by extension, the author sees and portrays it as one and the readers will infer it as one. You'd be hard-pressed to find a flaw in Ginny that was intended as such. Actually, I've read in an interview of Rowling's that Ginny's biggest flaw was her strong reaction against people who angered her (as demonstrated by the Zacharias Smith passage you gave us), therefore telling us that Ginny had a quick temper and often acted before she thought. But there are places in the books where Ginny regrets her behavior, and other characters, mostly her mother or father, scold her for it. Ginny is not without her share of scoldings, and I have no clue how you came to surmise that she was never scolded for her behavior. 

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

As for Ginny insulting Zabini, can you please provide more of that passage (witha few lines on what Zabini said) instead of only concentrating on what Ginny said? Because it's hard analyzing someone's character based on only their lines alone, and leaving out the lines of thoese around them. And as you said, your personal preference for Zabini may have come in the way of your judgment of Ginny. After all, we all have character preferences, and if that character is hurt or insulted, we generally will not like the person who insulted or hurt him. With that logic, we can say Hermione was mean because she punched Malfoy in the face and broke his nose (an awesome move by Hermione by the way) in the third book, but Malfoy deserved what he got, just like Zabini (sorry), so I don't find either Hermione or Ginny "mean". They're both wonderful characters in their own way and both have different faults despite which we (at least I) still love them.

It wasn't Zabini that I prefer (not the canon one anyways, I prefer fandom's Zabini to Rowling's mostly because Rowling never bothered to develop him or the other Slytherins much) - it was Zacharias Smith, from Hufflepuff. My bad. Hermione had reason to punch Malfoy; her love for Buckbeak and Draco's bratty behavior were reason enough. This contradicts many of your previous post, where you criticized characters' behavior for taking action against someone who was "bratty" or because that person insulted someone they loved. Actually, if you look at it from a liberal point of view, Hermione had no reason for punching Malfoy, and it was as "mean-spirited" as Ginny with Zacharias Smith. Also, Hermione at most would have broken Malfoy's nose; Ginny could have caused more drastic damage given that she flew into the podium and shrapnel could have embedded itself in his epidermis. Like you said above, 'could' is the magic word here. If Malfoy is to be let off for almost cruciating Harry, why can't Ginny be for what she did to Zacharias Smith? Malfoy "could" have tortured Harry with pain beyond anything and Ginny "could" have hurt Smith further. If you dont mind me saying, you seem to be a bit biased when it comes to Malfoy or other Slytherins versus Harry, Ginny, or the others. There was also the fact that Malfoy insulted Hagrid numerous times ("oaf" etc) while Zacharias was merely questioning her . However, Ginny had no such motivation. She hexed Smith because she felt like it:  

"He saw me hex Zacharias Smith," said Ginny. "You remember that idiot from Hufflepuff who was in the D.A.? He kept on and on asking about what happened at the Ministry and in the end he annoyed me so much I hexed him ? when Slughorn came in I thought I was going to got detention, but he just thought it was a really good hex and invited me to lunch! Mad, eh?" (HBP - p. 147 U.S. Ed.-- There is no further demonstration of this scene)

I really don't think you can compare this with Draco's incident. Draco was at fault, Zacharias wasn't. Zacharias did not deserve to be hexed for not blindly believing the Daily Prophet. Further more, he certainly did not deserve to be slammed into a podium merely because Ginny felt like it. Actually, Zacharias was just as much of a git as Malfoy. If you remember the things he said in the 5th and 6th books, he was not a very nice person, and seriously, Ginny only slammed him into the podium. And that was as a punishment for being smart alecky and rude to the others in Dumbledore's Army. I really don't think she would have caused him more damage. She was not a violent person after all (though you may think she is).

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

I honestly don't see how Ginny is a Mary-Sue character. She has plenty of faults, and she has plenty of good qualities, just like Hermione. Sometimes, I found Luna a Mary-Sue character, but only at times, because it seemed as if she had no faults except for being feather-brained. She was almost perfect.
 

A Mary Sue isn't a character who is only defined by having no flaws. A Mary Sue is someone who is meant to serve as a wish-fulfillment character and as such, has no flaws & has extraordinary qualities (Quidditch, bat-bogey hex, fantastic sense of humor etc). Ginny fits the criteria. Ginny has no flaws post GoF - and even if they are flaws, they are portrayed as qualities a la Isabella Swan and her clumsiness which is oh-so-endearing. What she does wrong never has any consequences for her even though other characters need to apologize for an action that is just like hers. She is always right in telling people off. Extra-beautiful - should I go on? You stated that Ginny had flaws - name one post GoF. A flaw that is meant to be a flaw by authorial intent, not a flaw that is white-washed as endearing. For instance, Ron's volatile temper is a character flaw - it is regard by characters, authors and readers as one; Isabella Swan's clumsiness is not - neither characters nor the author regard it as one. I might have agreed with your assessment of Luna had she been portrayed as the coolest thing to hit Hogwarts like Ginny is. Luna isn't all powerful like Ginny is (post-GoF), plus she has to face the consequences of her actions unlike Ginny. Luna isn't portrayed to be overly witty or strikingly beautiful as Ginny is (numerous references to Ginny's outer beauty in OOTP, HBP etc ). She doesn't fill the wish-fulfillment critera; hence, no Mary Sue-ness there. So being beautiful and cool is a Mary Sue quality? And about Isabella Swan: I don't understand why eveyone thinks her only quality is her clutziness. It's not. Bella has many faults, the foremost being her complete dependence on one man and her selfish inconsideration when it comes to the feelings of other (aka Jacob Black). I do not consider being klutzy, being beautiful, or things like that "flaws". Those are characteristics people are born with. Flaws are characteristics people develop. And the reason I strongly dislike Bella Swan's character is not because she's a "Mary-Sue" (because she's far from a Mary-Sue). It's because her dependence on Edward, her inablitiy to make any choices herself, and her selfishness do not make her very likeable to me. That's completely my opinon, so I don't state this as a fact, but as my opinion. I know some people who find these qualities in Bella "endearing (eurgh)", but that's their own opinion, and I suppose I respect them for that. Same with Ginny. I find her a very flawed character, and her flaws are acknowledged both by the author and many of her fans. But some people consider her a "Mary-Sue" because they find that her faults are not faults enough, but it eventually ends up being opinion-opinion. Either you like Bella or you don't. And the same with Ginny. Either you like her or you don't. There's not much to argue about endlessly, because the interpretation of her character is simply that, an interpretation. I find Ginny like a mini Fred and George, or even more of a mini-James Potter, which is the reason I like her a lot.Embarrassed But others like you may find her mean-spirited, and that's because of your own personal interpretation of her character. Nothing wrong in that. 

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

While you may say you cannot see any good qualities in Ginny, that's your own opinion about how you interpreted her character as written by JK Rowling, but I interpreted her differently, as do other people who love Ginny. What we feel does not make something a fact.

The word "feelings" connotes sentimentality which is far removed from interpretation. My interpretation is based on JKR showed, what she told (in books and in interviews) and what she didn't, not some "feeling". While I'm not saying what is stated above are facts - they are interpretations, as yours are, of events that took place in the books. Interpretation actually is related to our feelings, because what we feel motivates many of our actions. No one is completely "un-biased" when analyzing someone or something. Their "feeling" always comes in the way, whether they acknowledge it or not. And the way in which their feeling works motivates the way in which they interpret things. If not, why do people interpret different from each other if their feelings don't come into consideration?
My interpretation is also based on JKR's interviews and events which took place in the books. How else would I interpret Ginny's character? By my own imagination? Not likely. I've read two interviews where Rowling discusses Ginny's character in detail. She is after all the woman who married her hero, and JKR explains why none other than Ginny could have married Harry, and why Ginny is a fitting character for Harry. My opinion on Ginny is actually strongly motivated by what Rowling said about her. She wasn't my favorite before either (I did not dislike her though), but after reading Rowling's interviews and re-reading the books, I like Ginny's character a lot more.
Neither what you stated or what I stated is a fact, because they are simply our opinions on Ginny, and our opinions are created by our feelings and what we feel on a certain subject.

..RamKiJanaki..

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..RamKiJanaki..

Joined: 20 August 2008

Posts: 44285

Posted: 22 April 2009 at 5:58pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by shellytt

@Lalitha,  that article that you posted was brilliant!. Thanks for it!

You're welcome! Glad you like it! I enjoyed it too!Big smile

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