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Your opinion on abortion (Page 9)

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Mindbender

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Posted: 14 April 2009 at 11:44pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by return_to_hades


Thanks for sharing the article. It really illustrates the complex questions that abortion arguments raise ad the difficulty in answering them. Any stance is socially or morally contradictory or flawed.

Although the above conclusion does not work for me. I'm a Spartan.

aap to kisi aur hi mitti ke bane hoLOL

You should think about us commoners too who are a load on this earthLOL

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_Angie_

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Posted: 14 April 2009 at 11:48pm | IP Logged
That was a loooooong read cloddy !  I still think let the mother decide ! Forcing her wud serve no purpose

rogna

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Posted: 15 April 2009 at 7:09am | IP Logged
Originally posted by Rage-Of-Angels

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

What are your views on abortion? Is it right or wrong? And in what circumstances should it be done? Does the mother have the right to make the decision herself, or should the father also have a say in it? Are there any alternatives to abortion that people should look into? And should religion become an issue when abortion is thought about? I know for sure that Christianity and Hinduism call abortion a sin (don't know about other religions), so what are your overall views on this?


Interesting topic.

Abortion is considered a sin in Islam in Christianity, im not too sure about the other religions though.

I think it depends on the mother herself, if a mother wants to get the abortion done than she should go ahead with it, without being forced to keep the child. A mother would  only want to abort a child if she is not ready to give her child the motherly love and is not committed to being a mother, therefore it would be better for her to abort the child than to unlove the child. That would be injustice to the child. However, if she is responsible enough to sleep with someone but not responsible enough to look after the baby then the she should plan ahead so such things could be avoided. Its a pain to everyone and kind of a disgrace to herself.

Personally i dont support abortion, but i am no-one to judge. Circumstances, is important factor to consider. 

Xoxo
hey your argument is so true. even though a person may not support abortion and considered abortion to be a sin and immoral, each person who got pregnant and do not want to keep the baby should be given the freedom to choose whether they want to terminate the pregnancy or not.

Beyond_the_Veil

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Posted: 15 April 2009 at 8:44am | IP Logged
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..RamKiJanaki..

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Posted: 15 April 2009 at 10:29am | IP Logged
Originally posted by PhoeniXof_Hades

Originally posted by _LalithaJanaki_

they should either keep the child or give it up for adoption.

Is giving up your child for adoption just because you never wanted him to come in the world a 'moral' thing to do? I can understand about the unmarried couples, but what about the married ones who are just giving up their child for adoption simply because they never meant to conceive, and it was an accident that the contraceptives hadn't worked? Another thing to consider. Hmm? *shrugs*
 
Wow! Nice answers; it must have taken you forever to type those!ClapShockedLOL As for adoption, I agree that it should not be used as an alternative for ever single circumstance, sich as financially stable couples who simply did not want to conceive, but isn't it much better than abortion? Sure, the poor kid would probably be stuck in an orhpanage for a long time, but who knows? He/she could suddenly be adopted by a loving couple in the future. If the child is given up for adoption or placed in an orhpanage, it at least has a chance to experience life, make decisions on its own. No one knows what our future holds (I won't even go into astrology hereWink), but anything could happen which could change the life of the child drastically. 
Though I'd prefer that couples act more responsibly and acknowledge the consequences beforehand, I still think adoption is better than abortion.  
 
By the way, I like your siggies. Who's the girl on the second one?


Edited by _LalithaJanaki_ - 15 April 2009 at 10:30am

prat9

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Posted: 15 April 2009 at 1:14pm | IP Logged
@PhoeniXof_Hades......WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!PHEEEEEEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...I'm sure your fingers must be all crooked by now from ALL these typings!...LOL!LOL   A standing ovation for you man!!!!Clap
 
FANTASTIC ANSWERS!!....You are more or less on the same wavelegnth as I do dude!Thumbs Up
 
and here is my 'pea-sized' answer Tongue(an overall reflection of my thoughts)... to the lenghty complex questions raised by return_to_hades....(hey !it just strikes me...you both have the same 'last' name....are you sisters!?....ROFL!..WinkROFL
 

well I've already given my views in my previous post but in reality when you are faced with real people with real cases in real situations, the whole matter pertaining to abortion ceases to be as clear cut as any answer put forward by anyone on this forum....

 

...just a simple real case which ironically is so common that it got repeated by another being......two of my very good firends got pregnant by accident due to unprotective sex.....now they wouldn't want to face the wrath of their respective parents and families,.....nor the humiliation of the society or peer groups.....being very young with no prospect of getting married so soon in the near future!....and most certainly not ready emotinally nor psychologically to be single mom!!!!....so what's left as the only option?!!....abortion, of course!...(i'm not relating to the western permissive society here as their codes of conduct stem from a completely different perception of life within their own realms of minds and concepts in general)

 

Did I condemn them as per my beliefs?.....well i did in my heart (not hypocritically though since they were made aware of my thoughts) however,their deeds did not lessen our bonds of friendship but rather strengthen them....i do condemn the act of killing that innocent life as a corrective measure to erase a wrong action .....so eventually two wrongs were committed at one time by these two girls just to abide by the rules of society and as the only best solution perceived to resolve this 'unwanted' problem.....no one ever gave a thought about the unborn child afterwards but I'm sure my friends have never ever forgotten the wrongful acts they committed due to their disregard about not believing or being strong enough to draw the line at the right time!....

 

I can't blame them for who they are....I love them with their flaws as after all it's human to err!....

 

I stood through thick and thin by my friends during this traumatic phase of their lives constantly blaming themselves for such horrendous mistakes (sometimes I wonder why do girls always take the full blame when it is clearly a case of two hands clapping!..well anyway that is another issue altogether)....as a friend, I couldn't bear to see the sufferings and distraught they had to go through and was always there to give my full support in favour of their happiness and health.....was i wrong in supporting them with their decisions? NO.. not as a true friend and a human being would do under such circumstances... but YES!personally,in my own conscience, I was also part of this misdeed in supporting them to put an end to innocent budding lives...... 

 

I would have done the same thing too in their places with all beliefs and principles thrown out to the wind....BUT the only difference is that I believe in prevention rather than hunting down for last minute cure which will surely fail due to such absence of mind on my part.....in otherwords i would certainly not find myself in their shoes because I know FOR A BIG FACT that I would never put myself at the root of such a predicament in the first place!....(and second thoughts if I did, I wouldn't let society ruled over my conscience and forced me to commit another wrong just to saveguard my honour or my family's for that matter....but then YET again another complex related problem...my parents' feelings and opinions....my dad is VERY orthodox and do girls have much of a say in that case?.....but thankfully though! having such a deep rooted rational sense strongly instilled in my nature that to shake if off me would be akin to losing my own identity!

 

Each individual is born with varying strengths of characters and convictions.....it actually doesn't matter what you believe in but rather how successful and perceptive you turn out to be without losing touch with your own sense of integrity .....if we don't draw the lines somewhere, they will be drawn for us by life at some point of time!..... 

 
 

*Woh Ajnabee*

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Posted: 15 April 2009 at 2:11pm | IP Logged
Wow Labib, you're on a roll!

return_to_hades

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Posted: 15 April 2009 at 10:36pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by PhoeniXof_Hades

Originally posted by return_to_hades

If Trojan failed, try Spartan. Thank God! I'm a heathen.

 

I am not getting it that why are people constantly bringing up religious matters to justify their position or attack the opposition's.

I know you did not direct this to me, but I wanted to shed my perception on why religion ends up coming in. Abortion and similar social issues deal a lot with the philosophy of morality. When dealing with the subject we start critically thinking what is right and wrong. Most people are taught these moral concepts through religion. Family passes on the ethics and morals through the concept of God and religion. So most people incorrectly believe that religion and morality are inherently connected. However, morality is a social and human science. Religious morality is just one  aspect of morality. The problem is that people are familiar and comfortable with religious morality. Often times we absorb the morals taught by parents and religion, without really thinking them through. That is why they tend to use religion as a justification.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with religious morality. In fact there are logical and philosophical roots to many religious morals. However, it is utmost important that people think their moral beliefs through. What is it that we believe, why do we believe, does this make sense, does it conflict with any other sense of morality. If science or logic conflicts with religion, people can tend to panic. Religion is a part of our sociocultural identity. It is natural to panic when something conflicts with it and in order to preserve that identity we reject conflicting information. In my opinion science, logic, religion can all exist harmoniously. That is why I ask these ten million annoying question. So every person really thinks their moral beliefs through. It does not matter if you are pro choice or pro life, what matters is that you have an opinion that you really thought through. Something that you critically pondered and chose a stance based on your personal reflection. Your beliefs should not be something handed down to you by clothes, you ought to play an active role in creating them.

That being said, my comment about 'heathen' is a self deprecating comment based people's rigid perceptions on religious morality. 

Originally posted by return_to_hades

Is an acorn an oak tree?

Eh? Didn't get you....clarify please.

An Acorn is a nut that contains the seed for the oak. A common phrase used in pro choice argument is that calling a fetus as human life is calling an acorn an oak tree. Its a logical leap we make when we call a fetus human because it may possibly grow into one.

Originally posted by return_to_hades

Should masturbation be illegal because each precious sperm could potentially become life? Should women get pregnant and not waste what could potentially be life every month?

Neither the sperm nor the egg has a life of its own. A fetus can grow into a child, given proper care and time. An individual sperm or egg cannot. Flawed comparison, dude.

Its not really that flawed. A fetus may possibly become human. The pregnancy may not carry full term. Child may die during or after birth. The child may die before becoming a functioning social human being. However, in a pro life argument we attribute fetus a life based on probability.The sperm or egg may not have life on its own. However, this argument is based on the probability factor. Had the person not wasted that sperm it probably could have inseminated an egg. Some cultures prohibit masturbation based on this 'waste' concept. Where and how do we draw the line on a probability argument.

Originally posted by return_to_hades

If you went on a trip to the Amazon and despite protective gear a small leech is now on your leg. You did not want the leech, but it happened. It's just one leech. It will suck your blood, but it will not be fatal. Most likely it will fall of in a few weeks if not days. Obviously its on you because you were careless, you took the risk. Are you obligated to care for that leech till it dies or detaches naturally?

I'm not quiet getting what you are trying to say here?are you comparing abortion with animal killing?

The intent was not to compare to animal killing here. The intent was to state that the fetus is nothing but a parasite. It is a being that lives in another being. It takes its nutrition from the other being. Basically it fulfills the biological definition of parasite. Unless we gain any symbiotic benefits there is no reason to support a parasite. So unless the person wants a benefit of a child,there is no reason to support a fetus.

Yes this sounds cold and extreme. Thats because this analogy takes away the 'human' aspect and plugs in 'definitions'. We have to remember a large part of this moral argument on abortion is based on an abstract concept of personhood. Its just a hard fact scenario without the human mushiness.

Take it at face value because I know its almost impossible to eliminate the concept of 'personhood' and 'human'. 

A question to you: Let's say a child had already been born into a family that consists of only a cracked single mom who is using inhumane treatments to the child (using drugs to keep him still), and let's say it is not possible to let someone adopt the children due to circumstances. Would you be willing to murder the child, then, cold-bloodedly to 'protect' the child from further harm?

I am a Spartan. Thats all I will say. Go watch 300.

Originally posted by return_to_hades

If you feel abortion is permissible in case of rape, does the same rule apply for statutory rape? If a fourteen year old girl willingly and consensually had sex with someone over eighteen and is pregnant, can she get abortion under rape exception?

First of all, the concept of statutory rape does not go with me. Rape, by definition, means to forcibly have sex with someone without his/her consent.

Consent is the key operative here. I do not agree with most statutory rape laws. However, the reason most countries keep such laws is because they deem that children under a certain age are not mentally ready to give consent. The rationale is that a minor may agree to sex, but does not understand the consequences, but a major knows better. So if someone over eighteen has sex with someone under the age of consent, it is statutory rape because they should have known the minor is not mentally ready to give consent. Parents and lawmakers like statutory rape laws because they give them a sense of protection. It prevents college kids from dating high school kids and the fear of rape charge stops them from trying to have sex.

The reason I do not fully agree with statutory rape laws is because it is a weak law that cajoles parents. It also blames the older person by default. Minors have been known to lie about their age and get fake id's to party, have sex etc despite that if caught the person over 18 is deemed rapist even though they asked for consent and thought they were following the law. Similarly even if a minor is having consensual sex with a person over 18 and does not want to press charges, parents can file statutory rape. Even if the over 18 person is highly committed to the relationship and intends to marry the rape charge sticks.

Originally posted by return_to_hades

By law a person under influence of alcohol or drugs is not deemed capable of giving consent?

Oh, my Lord, from where do you come up with these complicated issues?

Actually drunk sex is one of the biggest concerns in many campuses here. Way too many kids getting drunk and doing regrettable things. Its complicated, but a very relevant issue.


There's a difference between 'killing' and 'letting die naturally'.

Not going into any more depth [for now] as it has already gotten this much complicated.

P.S. Sareena, have read your article 'bout euthanasia on your webpage. That's where I got my information from.

Haha so you will use my own reports against me. LOL

Wanted to clarify that 'killing' involves passive killing too. If someone is drowning and you fully are within reach and have ability to save, but do not do so then your inaction has killed somebody. That is not letting die. However, if a person is far at sea and there is no way for them to be rescued. Then they were going to die, by doing nothing you may have failed in trying to save, but you let them die and did not kill them. 

Originally posted by return_to_hades

Reproductive damage, cosmetic damage, handicap?

What do you mean by reproductive and cosmetic damage? Btw, have never heard of mother getting handicapped for giving birth to a child. Care to clarify?

Reproductive damage is caused where reproductive organs like uterus, vagina are damaged due to complicated birth. The woman will never conceive again. Terminating the pregnancy may perhaps prevent the damage and the woman may be able to conceive again. The complication could be a one off instance and that woman may have multiple children in the future, but the same complication may arise over and over again.

Cosmetic damage is permanent scarring or disfiguration due to surgical procedures required for birthing. C-sections and multiple births often cause scarring that can be permanent. There is operational risk too. Which is why some women dread them.

My punctuation was wrong, read as reproductive or cosmetic handicap. A women who cannot conceive will consider herself handicapped. Some women consider their downstairs issues to be handicaps too. However, I think reproductive damage is somewhat a viable concern. Cosmetic damage, ah pish tosh, silly women.


Originally posted by *Woh Ajnabee*

Do Aah, Sarina, long time no see. Tell me, why is it that we always end up on the opposite sides of the spectrum?

 

Umm...I do not think Sarina (oh, is that the correct spelling?!) is pro-abortion (not at least in normal cases), otherwise she wouldn't be asking the questions. Besides, there was one article about abortion written by Sarina, reading which didn't seem that she is for it.

To clarify my stance, I am neither pro-choice or pro-life. You can call me agnostic when it comes to abortion. No hard and fast rules, take it as the situation comes. Personally, I am against it based on an irrational morality that cannot be logically justified. Legally, I do not have a right to enforce a decision on anyone. So when it comes to legal rights i am 100% pro choice in all cases. 




ClapClapClap

Very well thought out responses though Labib. I enjoyed reading the post. Sorry I did not reply to the whole thing.  Even I dont have that much energy.

Clap

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