When exactly did the Mahabharat War happen? (Page 4)

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Posted: 29 November 2008 at 3:10am | IP Logged
Originally posted by godisone

Originally posted by shyam.rathi

Originally posted by luv_khwaish

thanks yaar..i didn't post the article earlier coz even i was confused abt the hindu years months and dates..a bit difficult to understand..but the dates n nakshatras suggest that Mahabharat actually happened...and the yug changed thereafter..


Do we feel the same about the Ramayana? Do we consider it a historical event or a mythological tale? If we go by the calculation of Yugas, the Treta yuga (in which the Ramayana takes place) started some 2.6 million years ago and finished after 1.3 million years.. So, the Ramayana must have taken place between 1.3 to 2.6 million years ago.. this seems improbable considering the origin of modern human (homo) some 500,000 years ago only.. in fact, the first premitive human being came into existence only 2 million years ago.. Some researchers have calculated the dating of Ramayana to be 4th Dec, 7323 BC (source).. but this was the time of Dwapar-yuga, not Treta yuga.. So, these calculations don't show any corelation with the calculations of Yugas..

So, this suggests that the Ramanyana must have been a mythological tale rather than a historical event.. if yes, then the MB also should have been a mythological event.. if not, then the Ramayana should also be a historical event considering that both Rama and Krishna were avatars of Vishnu.. I'm really confused about this.. If someone can help me with this, i'd truly appreciate...

So, in short, are both MB and Ramayana historical events? or one of them is a mythological tale..
 
Ramayan is definitely a historical event. I'm not saying this on the basis of faith only, but there are several proofs we can look at. First, there is the recently discovered Ram Sethu, which you probably know what it is. However, as many people think the Ram Sethu was an accumulation of sand and not man made, we can look at other proofs also. People have also discovered the Ashok Vatika where Mata Sita was kept, the palace of Ravan that Hanuman destroyed, Sugriva's cave on Rishyamook Parvath, and even the Sanjivini Parvat.
Many researchers have also calculated Rama's date of birth. Read this article, where it explains how/why Rama is real, and the date of birth is real. http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/sci.astronomy/msg00027.html
The discoveries of the places in Ramayan were done by not only our Indians, but also American archeologists, who acknowledged that these places were from the time period in which the Treta Yug is said to happen.
Due to our much advanced technology of today and better understanding of the world which people of olden days did not have, many discoveries of proofs in Ramayana and Mahabharata have been made, strengthening people's belief in the epics by not only faith alone. I haven't explained the proofs in great detail, which would better help you understand, but if you need, I will.
 
About the Homo-Sepians; remember, "proof" that the first humans came into existence 500,000 years ago was found many many years ago. We are from a religion where humans existed much before that, and especially now, when discoveries are being made that our epics are not fairy tale myths but real, we must broaden our minds and let in the doubt that maybe the discovery of the first homo is not correct. After all, the discovery was made long ago, and today, we have more technology, better materials for uncovering the truth in history, and we are uncovering so many things from Ramayana. If one does not believe in the great Ram Sethu, then there are more truths. Ultimately, people will eventually realize that our Ramayana is not a myth, but pure history, and the sooner they accept it, the better. This is not based on faith alone, but thanks to the archeologists of today, we Indians have an answer to all those who make fun of us for believing in the Ramayana and Mahabharata.
 
This link is very very interesting, and talks about proof of ancient man. Here's a little excerpt from the article.
In early Indian literature, there are periods of history written about that contain multiples of 432,000 years. According to the Vedic system 1,000 Yuga cycles equals One Day of Brahma. The lengths of "time" in the Satya, Treta, Dvapura and Kali yugas are 4, 3, 2, and 1 times an interval of 432,000 years.

Within these immense periods of time the human life span decreases from 100,000 years in the Satya-yuga (the Golden Age), to 10,000 years in the Treta-yuga (the Silver Age), 1,000 years in the Dwapura-yuga (the Bronze Age), and finally 100 years in the Kali-yuga (the Iron Age). All these numbers are multiples of 108, the number of beads in Eastern prayer necklaces. Rama lived in the Treta Yuga.

A Yuga cycle consists of four yugas, or 4.32 million years. A thousand yuga cycles equals One Day of Brahma or 4.32 billion years.
 

  
I hope this helped. Tell me if you need any more info.
 
therez a point..it's said in this article that Shri Ram was born around 5112 BC..and that was treta yug..and Mahabharat happened  around 3102 BC......If a yug is 432,000 years then howcome dwapar yug start and end in a short span of 2000 yrs or so? tht means one of these info is incorrect...or it might be that Ramayan and Mahabharat happened in those times but in the same yug?

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Posted: 29 November 2008 at 3:22am | IP Logged
oh oh i didn't read the discussions on this issue n posted the same question :) plz excuse

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Posted: 29 November 2008 at 3:37am | IP Logged
Originally posted by shyam.rathi

Originally posted by luv_khwaish

thanks yaar..i didn't post the article earlier coz even i was confused abt the hindu years months and dates..a bit difficult to understand..but the dates n nakshatras suggest that Mahabharat actually happened...and the yug changed thereafter..


Do we feel the same about the Ramayana? Do we consider it a historical event or a mythological tale? If we go by the calculation of Yugas, the Treta yuga (in which the Ramayana takes place) started some 2.6 million years ago and finished after 1.3 million years.. So, the Ramayana must have taken place between 1.3 to 2.6 million years ago.. this seems improbable considering the origin of modern human (homo) some 500,000 years ago only.. in fact, the first premitive human being came into existence only 2 million years ago.. Some researchers have calculated the dating of Ramayana to be 4th Dec, 7323 BC (source).. but this was the time of Dwapar-yuga, not Treta yuga.. So, these calculations don't show any corelation with the calculations of Yugas..

So, this suggests that the Ramanyana must have been a mythological tale rather than a historical event.. if yes, then the MB also should have been a mythological event.. if not, then the Ramayana should also be a historical event considering that both Rama and Krishna were avatars of Vishnu.. I'm really confused about this.. If someone can help me with this, i'd truly appreciate...

So, in short, are both MB and Ramayana historical events? or one of them is a mythological tale..
 
how can u say either both are ficticious or both happened? is it not possible that at least one of them is a historical event?
 
Secondly Shyam, there are a lot many things for which science has no explanation...Therez a place in Vrindavan called Nidhivan..It's believed that every night Krishna comes over there and hence, nobody human or animal can stay there in the night..whoever has tried to do so was found dead the next morning.......I've visited that place n it's truely divine...All the houses and buildings which surround that area have their back towards it and people living there don't dare to even look at it in the night...few eyewitnesses said that therez a very very bright light which appears .some who have tried to capture it on cameras or look at it through telescopes have turned blind......Whatz the scientific explanation of this? I think in this era, the progress of science is enormous, it has developed in leaps and bound, yet just 10-15% of all can be explained with the help of science....can science explain the secrets of life and death? how beautifully nature has created every single life form but science can't "create" anything yet, at most it tries to give explanation of why such and such thing is happening...
 
i can go on and on about it....i hope i didn't hurt u in nyway.. i'm not against science but nobody is above God...above nature..
 
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Posted: 29 November 2008 at 3:59am | IP Logged
Thanks Charu and Lalitha, for forwarding the discussion..
Before moving ahead, i should make one thing very clear Smile.. I'm a religious person with faith in God and his or her teachings. Here, I'm not questioning the existence of God in any manner. All I am doing is to separate religion from science. Science can't and shouldn't try to explain the God and itz existence. In the same manner, religious faiths and Gods should not seek the help of science to prove their authenticity.. both are totally separate domains and should not clash with each other..
My problem is with those who tries to explain religious phenomenon using science. If you consider Ram and Krishna as Gods, then you should not try to prove that they are historical figures. By making them historical rather than mythological characters, you unnecessarily put them into the context of science. What is the need to prove that Ram or Krishna was a historical figure? They are Gods and their powers and existence are always there in our faiths. Then why should we analyze them in the context of history and science?
Lalitha, why should we find links which prove the historicity of these Gods. I've already analyzed your previous two links and both of them have been full of false information (please read my earlier post).
So, all I am saying here is that we should accept these Gods as mythological characters and should follow their teachings. There is no point in proving their actual existence on the Earth since these Gods are always beyond the terrestrial truths. And God really doesn't need any proof from science. They are in our faiths and that is an enough reason to believe in them.

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Posted: 29 November 2008 at 5:56am | IP Logged
Originally posted by shyam.rathi

Thanks Charu and Lalitha, for forwarding the discussion..
Before moving ahead, i should make one thing very clear Smile.. I'm a religious person with faith in God and his or her teachings. Here, I'm not questioning the existence of God in any manner. All I am doing is to separate religion from science. Science can't and shouldn't try to explain the God and itz existence. In the same manner, religious faiths and Gods should not seek the help of science to prove their authenticity.. both are totally separate domains and should not clash with each other..
My problem is with those who tries to explain religious phenomenon using science. If you consider Ram and Krishna as Gods, then you should not try to prove that they are historical figures. By making them historical rather than mythological characters, you unnecessarily put them into the context of science. What is the need to prove that Ram or Krishna was a historical figure? They are Gods and their powers and existence are always there in our faiths. Then why should we analyze them in the context of history and science?
Lalitha, why should we find links which prove the historicity of these Gods. I've already analyzed your previous two links and both of them have been full of false information (please read my earlier post).
So, all I am saying here is that we should accept these Gods as mythological characters and should follow their teachings. There is no point in proving their actual existence on the Earth since these Gods are always beyond the terrestrial truths. And God really doesn't need any proof from science. They are in our faiths and that is an enough reason to believe in them.
 
I agree with you up to a point, but I don't agree that science should not clash at all with religion. I personally said I didn't care if there was proof of Shri Ram and Shri Krishna, because I believe that they are real, and as much history as Chanakya or Chandragupta.But there are others who want the proof that their Gods are real, because many western religions ridicule Hinduism for being polytheistic. They ridicule us for believing Ramji and Krishnaji are real, so it is a point of pride when discoveries are made that relate to Ramayan and Mahabharat. It's like a "ha in you face!" to all those western people who think we are foolish and stupid. It is also a point of pride.
 
And not the only discoveries, contemporary devotees like Saint Tyagaraja, Bhadrachala Ramadasu, Tulsidas, and Tukaram received darshan from Lord Ram himself. What other proof do you need? After all this, why should we believe Ramayan and Mahabharat were pure mythologies? It's staring us in the face, Ramayan and Mahabharat are history, and only due to making people realize this is God sending all this proof to us. He appears to devotees, makes people discover sites from the Treta Yuga, etc.
 
Even in Science itself, there are many many unexplainable questions. Does that mean science is not real? Even scientists do not try to prove that God is real with their scientific ways, because that is impossible. Science cannot explain God exists. Does that mean God is not real? No. There are many happenings in this Kali-Yug itself that science cannot explain, what then of Treta-Yug and Dwapar-Yug? You're right. We cannot explain the "scientific side" of Brahmastra or Pushpak Viman, but that does not mean they are not real. This world does not stand on science alone. There's obviously magic involved, but not the "Harry Potter" magic we imagine, but the magic of mantras and yagnas. Without our priests and mahamunis performing yagnas, this world would be long gone.
 
While Ram and Krishna are definitely Gods, they appeared on Earth as humans, so why can't we believe they are history? Ramji and Krishnaji lived like humans, ate like humans, etc. Ram could have killed Ravan with a snap of his finger, and Krishna could have killed all of the Kauravas the same way, but why didn't they? Because that would be going against the law of humans. Normal humans don't do that, if they did things like that, people would defintiely believe they were Gods only, and not historical figures.
There's nothing wrong in taking historical figures as Gods also. Ramji and Krishnaji were historical figures, because they were humans, but they were incarnations of Gods also, so that's why they're worshipped.
 
There is more of a relation between science and religion than people know. My family has these kinds of discussions at home all the time, and my dad tells me so much stuff that is enlightening. Without religion, science cannot exist. And without science, many people would not believe in religion. 

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Posted: 03 December 2008 at 11:04am | IP Logged
Hey Shyam, don't u think that there IS some reality in these articles which calculates the dates of these events according to the position of stars and constellations at that time? (Although there is a strong and valid point regarding the dwapar and treata yug ..date of birth of ram and krishna..that's another point coz the calculations might be wrong )
 
I was interested in knowing whether there are more proofs of Ramayan being a historical event or Mahabharat? what r the proofs available for Ramayan and what r the proofs available for Mahabharat...coz if we assume this dating of Mahabharat to be correct then it contradicts the facts about the birth of Lord Ram Confused  and vice versa


Edited by luv_khwaish - 03 December 2008 at 11:06am

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Posted: 03 December 2008 at 11:41am | IP Logged
Originally posted by luv_khwaish

Hey Shyam, don't u think that there IS some reality in these articles which calculates the dates of these events according to the position of stars and constellations at that time? 

Most of the articles are full of discrepancies.. The time of Ramayana has been mentioned as around 7000 BC which was the time of Dwapar-Yuga.. If we go by the calculations of yugas, then Ramayana has taken place even before the primitive human appeared on the Earth..
Secondly, you need to analyze a lots of variables to calculate ancient dates using the position of stars and constellations at that time.. The rotational speed of Earth, distance to moon etc have varied considerably since last millenniums.. Also, due to a phenomenon called 'Equinox precession of the rotation axis of Earth', we simply can't back trace the positions of stars without digging very deeply.. and most of the articles have given very simple calculations, too simple to believe them as true.. Most of these calculations suffer from 'confirmation bias'..

 
Originally posted by luv_khwaish

coz if we assume this dating of Mahabharat to be correct then it contradicts the facts about the birth of Lord Ram Confused  and vice versa

That was my point, are both of these historical events or just one of these? if only one, then why not the other?



Edited by shyam.rathi - 03 December 2008 at 11:45am

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Posted: 03 December 2008 at 11:41am | IP Logged
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Edited by shyam.rathi - 03 December 2008 at 11:44am

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