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chal_phek_mat

Senior Member

chal_phek_mat

Joined: 07 March 2008

Posts: 958

Posted: 03 December 2008 at 9:45am | IP Logged

Talking about our responsibility, One of the edit columns in a Indian Newspapers had this interesting point

There are 4 prominent data points in the history of Islamic(since there has been Hindu and Sikh version of this as well, so let us be specific here) terrorism in India
1. When the first time there was a hostage crisis of this magnitude, Rubeena Sayeed, the images were frightened father and Minister Mufti Sayeed and govt paid heed to the public sentiment leading to a realease of hostages. It is said to be the one of the very first blunder on our part and this was done by VP Singh/IK Gujaral over the protests of then CM Farooq Abudallah who was saying this will open the floodgates(and what floodgates they have been since then)
2. Then there were the Bombay bomblast, the pubic resiliantly returned back to work the very next day as if nothing happened, noted character Dawood
3. Then there was the hijacking of the Flight 814 and the public display of hysteria by the relatives leading to release of Maulana Masood Azhar amongst others by the BJP Govt
4. Then last week when the terrorist had hostages, huge public outcry against terrorism and govt. Govt acts as if there were no hostages and kills all but 1 of the terrorists along with some hostages, noted character Dawood/Maulana Azhar
On a side note the former PM of India VP Singh passed away while this was happening
 
Is it just a co-incidence?
When the public cries the govt goes into appeasement mode,
The public becomes indifferent the govt becomes indifferent
The public gets angry, the govt follows the lead of the public anger
 
So given that, who should be blamed here?

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Golden iron

Senior Member

Golden iron

Joined: 17 September 2008

Posts: 264

Posted: 03 December 2008 at 1:19pm | IP Logged
Originally posted by chal_phek_mat

Talking about our responsibility, One of the edit columns in a Indian Newspapers had this interesting point

There are 4 prominent data points in the history of Islamic(since there has been Hindu and Sikh version of this as well, so let us be specific here) terrorism in India
1. When the first time there was a hostage crisis of this magnitude, Rubeena Sayeed, the images were frightened father and Minister Mufti Sayeed and govt paid heed to the public sentiment leading to a realease of hostages. It is said to be the one of the very first blunder on our part and this was done by VP Singh/IK Gujaral over the protests of then CM Farooq Abudallah who was saying this will open the floodgates(and what floodgates they have been since then)
2. Then there were the Bombay bomblast, the pubic resiliantly returned back to work the very next day as if nothing happened, noted character Dawood
3. Then there was the hijacking of the Flight 814 and the public display of hysteria by the relatives leading to release of Maulana Masood Azhar amongst others by the BJP Govt
4. Then last week when the terrorist had hostages, huge public outcry against terrorism and govt. Govt acts as if there were no hostages and kills all but 1 of the terrorists along with some hostages, noted character Dawood/Maulana Azhar
On a side note the former PM of India VP Singh passed away while this was happening
 
Is it just a co-incidence?
When the public cries the govt goes into appeasement mode,
The public becomes indifferent the govt becomes indifferent
The public gets angry, the govt follows the lead of the public anger
 
So given that, who should be blamed here?
 
Very good analysis..but I think bottom line is us. When majority of us are educated now, why we cannot take proper decision??? We still have to fight on basis os cast...I cannot beleive peopel have prejudice still prevailing for brahmins etc...All these human created beliefs have to go. make it a uniform country. Get good leaders. Make a clean society Star  AND yes it can be done, and all together we can do

Golden iron

Senior Member

Golden iron

Joined: 17 September 2008

Posts: 264

Posted: 04 December 2008 at 8:47am | IP Logged
Fiorwarding a message I received
 
 
Following a visit to Pakistan, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza
Rice declared that the Pakistani government has pledged to cooperate
in rounding up suspects of the Mumbai terror attacks who operated
from Pakistani territory or were of Pakistani origin.

According to reports sourced from news agencies and published in
EXPRESS INDIA today (http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/US-
India-Weve-proof-of-ISI-role-in-Mumbai-attacks/394263/):

**Chairman of US Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen, who was
in Pakistan on Wednesday, is believed to have told his Pakistani
interlocutors that Washington had enough evidence to show a
Pakistani hand in the attack, the sources said.

**Sources also refuse to believe that the Pakistani army did not
have knowledge of the Mumbai operation given that ISI is controlled
by it.

**At the same time, sources do not believe that the civilian
government in Pakistan is involved in the attack. In fact, one view
is that the civilian government itself may be a target of the strike
which may be used by the army to heighten tensions with India to
return to power

Thus, the crucial question is: Does Pakistan's government have the
ability to go after the suspects of the Mumbai carnage wilthout
civil authority regaining effective control over Pakistan's army and
the ISI? With Pakistan so heavily dependent on American largess both
for military supplies and social and economic sustenance and with
Pakistan's finances in intensive care under IMF's supervision, can
there be a better time for America to exercise its powerful leverage
to get the military (and ISI) ensconced securely under civilian
control?

Friends of both India and Pakistan in the US need to impress upon
Congress that NOW is the time to make Pakistan's democracy secure
and safe from any future threats of a military take over. Once that
task is accomplished, it will be easier to prepare and execute a
strategy to finish off the terrorists. Without fulfilling this
precondition, nothing can stop Pakistan from continuing to be the
epicenter of terrrorism in the world.

It's NOW or NEVER.

The US India Political Action Committee (USINPAC) has formulated an
action plan to respond rapidly to the terrorist attacks in Mumbai.
The action plan includes working with several key Members of
Congress to develop an effective response from the US, supporting a
Congressional Resolution condemning the attacks, supporting US-India
counter-terrorism legislation, and organizing a Congressional
Briefing on the origins of the terrorist attacks and the best way
for the US to proceed. Further, USINPAC has launched a petition
calling for changes in US aid to Pakistan to be signed by Indian
Americans across the country. The petition will be presented to
Congress.

USINPAC spoke with India Caucus Co-Chair Rep. Jim McDermott (D-WA),
who will be authoring a Congressional Resolution condemning the
attacks. It has said it will help Rep. McDermott gain Congressional
support for the resolution. Further, it will work with Rep.
McDermott to organize a Congressional Briefing on the terror attacks
as soon as Congress is back in session. It's important to gain
Congressional support for US-India counter-terrorism legislation
being authored by Rep. Steve Israel (D-NY).

We need to get massive participation on this petition to demonstrate
to the US Congress and the administration the anger, pain, and
desire for action on the issue of terror camps in Pakistan that is
being felt by the Indian American community. Please read and then
sign the petition immediately to reflect your response to the Mumbai
Attacks and forward it to at least 10 people you know!

To access the petition, please visit
http://www.petitiononline.com/USINPAC9/petition.html

jagdu

IF-Dazzler

jagdu

Joined: 05 October 2007

Posts: 3139

Posted: 04 December 2008 at 10:10pm | IP Logged
GI,
 
I did sign.
I believe that if there are 5000 signatures the campaign becomes valid.

Golden iron

Senior Member

Golden iron

Joined: 17 September 2008

Posts: 264

Posted: 05 December 2008 at 8:19am | IP Logged
Originally posted by jagdu

GI,
 
I did sign.
I believe that if there are 5000 signatures the campaign becomes valid.
Thanks Jagdu.
Yeap so few more signatures...pl forward thsi petition and let the pressure on Pak come from all sides.

Golden iron

Senior Member

Golden iron

Joined: 17 September 2008

Posts: 264

Posted: 05 December 2008 at 8:21am | IP Logged
Did you know that there is a system in our constitution, as per the 1969 act, in section "49-O" that a person can go to the polling booth, confirm his identity, get his finger marked and convey the presiding election officer that he doesn't want to vote anyone!   Yes such a feature is available, but obviously these   leaders have never disclosed it. This is called "49-O".   Why should you go and say " I VOTE NOBODY"... because, in a ward, if a candidate wins, say by 123 votes, and that particular ward has received "49-O" votes more than 123, then that polling will be cancelled and will have to be re-polled. Not only that, but the candidature of the contestants will be removed and they cannot contest the re-polling, since people had already expressed their decision on them.   This would bring fear into parties and hence look for genuine candidates for their parties for election. This would change the way; of our whole political system.... it is seemingly surprising why the election commission has not revealed such a feature to the public.....   Please spread this news to as many as you know... Seems to be a wonderful weapon against corrupt parties in India ... show your power, expressing your desire not to vote for anybody, is even more powerful than voting.... so don't miss your chance. So either vote, or vote not to vote (vote 49-O) and pass this info on...   Use your voting right for a better INDIA   Share this with As many as U can.....  Sharing is Caring..........

it is Caring about.... Our Mother India

chal_phek_mat

Senior Member

chal_phek_mat

Joined: 07 March 2008

Posts: 958

Posted: 05 December 2008 at 2:16pm | IP Logged

The Bureacratics and their failures, some wanted written authorization to send their commando's, some claimed they did not have training so just kept firing aimlessly, some just flat out lied about information

http://www.samachar.com&nextids=3192671|3192672|3192673|3192674|3192675&nextIndex=3

NEW DELHI: Bureaucratic wrangles and red tape gave the Mumbai attackers a lead time of more than six hours to wreak havoc in the two besieged hotels of Taj and Oberoi Trident on November 26.

Piecing together the events of that fateful night, the story that emerges is one of chaos and confusion, of a government without a clear command and control system to deal with terrorist attacks, of bureaucratic delays of the worst kind.

Was anyone in charge that night? The answer is no.

According to reports available with the central government, the counter-terrorism operation ran into bureaucratic walls even as it became apparent that the attack was an extraordinary one. The navy wanted a written request for help. The National Security Guard in Delhi wasted time waiting for a transport plane that came from Chandigarh when the government could have commandeered any commercial aircraft in Delhi.

A highly placed source in the government estimated that there was a six-hour delay in starting the commando action. This pushed up the toll considerably.

A senior Maharashtra government officer said what hampered them the most was the absence of a "single-point command" to which they could direct their requests for help and reinforcements. 

The chief secretary, additional chief secretary (home), and a clutch of other bureaucrats made desperate phone calls to top government bosses in Delhi asking for help and intervention.

The so-called crisis management committee (CMC) in Delhi, headed by cabinet secretary KM Chandrasekhar, met only after midnight, that too when National Security Adviser MK Narayanan finally arrived at Race Course Road - the prime minister's official residence - from a dinner party.

The members of the CMC monitored developments from home, watching television and talking on their cell phones. Narayanan was in similar mode at the dinner party he was attending. He left only at 11:15pm, when prime minister Manmohan Singh summoned him and members of the CMC for an emergency meeting.

Though a decision to send the NSG was taken early, the deployment of the commandos was delayed because the transport carrier, an ancient Russian-made Il-76, had to be fetched from Chandigarh. The commandos were ferried in rickety buses from Manesar in Haryana, where they were stationed. They boarded the plane to Mumbai at around 2am.

The NSG's journey took three hours because the Il-76 is a slow plane. From Mumbai airport, they were transported again in BEST buses without pilot cars to clear the roads. By the time they took up positions outside the hotels, dawn was breaking and the terrorists had done their worst.

'We want it in writing'
The Western Naval Command refused to deploy marine commandos without a written request. It rejected the Mumbai police commissioner's letter, saying that no one less than the chief secretary would do. Under government rules, even a district magistrate can requisition help from the defence forces. The Mumbai police commissioner is much higher in rank

Commandos declined to go in
In the end, the Maharashtra chief secretary had to prepare a letter and fax it to the navy. The marine commandos finally reached the hotels some two hours after the terrorists seized them. But they refused to go inside on the plea that they were not trained for such operations. They stayed outside, firing intermittently at the hotels while the terrorists moved around freely inside, killing at will.

Now another article from BBC


The blame game over who was responsible for bloody terror attacks in the western Indian city of Mumbai (Bombay) has a sense of dj vu about it.

Security experts have criticised the response to the attacks, which left nearly 200 people dead, as "amateurish, sluggish and feeble".

Indian intelligence agencies are leaking information that they gave about half a dozen warnings to the government in Maharashtra state - of which Mumbai is the capital.

The reports say Maharashtra was warned that strikes were being planned on city landmarks, including, possibly, the Taj Mahal hotel at the historic Gateway of India.

Authorities in Mumbai flatly deny that they received any tip-offs. "It is unimaginable that we would have got this sensitive information and not react," says state Interior Secretary Chitkala Zutshi.

newspapers have produced documents that prove that the state interior secratary was the one actually LYING here and had actually received those memo's, but now what remains to be seen is whether the Indian Govt chooses to get rid of this person based upon information provided by their political rival or do they play politics. Yep there was a hue and cry to get rid of a person for political reason just becuase he used the wrong sentence, but no hue and cry to get rid of the person who actually led to the intelligence failureAngry
 
But security experts confirm that information extracted from a group of Indian and Pakistani men arrested in northern India earlier this year revealed that some men belonging to Pakistan-based groups had done a reconnaissance of major landmarks in Mumbai. The agencies had also been picking up militant chatter on attacks in the city.

The police in India are working on manpower and equipment assessments last made in the 1970s

Yet the local police and intelligence agencies appeared to have failed to act on any of the information - despite doubts as to whether the information was shared promptly enough between the Mumbai authorities.

This is a story which keeps repeating itself in a country which has been hit by over half a dozen big "terror attacks" this year - the central and local security authorities trade charges over the sharing and quality of intelligence, followed by knee-jerk responses and investigations which fizzle out in a couple of years.

The attacks and their aftermath again point to the rot that has set into the country's internal security system and a lack of cohesion between civilian and security wings of the government.

One telling example: six days after the attack, even the number of dead and injured keeps going up and down, due to poor co-ordination between the police and hospitals.

More seriously, the Indian police appear to be incapacitated by a lack of money and training. Poor working conditions, rudimentary surveillance and communications equipment, inadequate forensic science laboratories and outdated weaponry are making matters worse.

"The Mumbai attacks prove that the whole system is falling apart. The police in India are working on manpower and equipment assessments last made in the 1970s," says security analyst Praveen Swami.

The fact that the gunmen came by sea - and sneaked into the city through a crowded fishing colony - points to almost non-existent coastal police patrols, as a local officer admits.

All that the police have is a couple of launches. They have no radar.

The Mumbai police - like most police in India - remain in a time warp: they are equipped with World War II vintage rifles and carbines handed down by the army. In most states, an average policeman's salary and status is equivalent to that of an unskilled municipal worker, encouraging corruption.

Budgets do not extend to supplying food to police personnel on shift, so many end up extorting food from street hawkers. They also routinely hitch free rides because they don't have enough vehicles. Training and faster response times are urgently needed, critics say

Bullet proof vests are of inferior quality and phone interception equipment remains largely rudimentary.

And three years after the central government announced the setting up an ambitious National Police Mission to set out the future needs and requirements of the force, nothing has happened.

India's commando forces are also not exactly in good shape.

A group of the elite 7,400-strong National Security Guards (NSG) - who were flown in to Mumbai eight hours after the attacks - is based near the capital, Delhi. Many of the commandos, say experts, are wasted in giving protection to politicians and other VIPs.

The country's best commando force does not have its own aircraft. As a result, it has become used to spending hours reaching crisis locations, with mixed results.

"On average, the commando force has taken six to seven hours to reach and begin their operations and get their act together every time they have been called for. There have been delays," says Praveen Swami.

He says the commandos have been trained to rescue small groups of people. "They have not been trained on multiple location operations of such scale."

Any deficiencies in their training may be explained by the fact that a Mumbai-type attack only happens very rarely.

That is why Indian security experts like Ajai Sahni say that the response to the attacks was so poor.

After the Mumbai attacks, the local government announced it would set up a state commando force: to begin with, some 500 armed men would be ready in four months.

This, when the basic training for the NSG commandos takes six months. And Maharashtra, along with other states, has no commando training centres.

A number of states where there have been attacks by Maoist rebels plan to raise their own commando forces, but early results point to hasty, faulty planning.

The authorities in eastern Orissa state, for example, hired 8,000 new policemen for anti-Maoist operations, but found to their dismay that it took six months to train just 350 of them.

There are allegations that many of the candidates paid bribes to get into the force.

India is seen as a 'soft' target

Painfully slow and lazy bureaucracy means that the modernisation of the security forces often takes ages. Police in Uttar Pradesh state took four years to buy imported surveillance equipment.

By the time it arrived, it had become outdated and now lies disused. One police official even paid by his own credit card to pick up a piece of $60 equipment from a foreign website for his forces because it would have taken him months, if not years, to acquire it.

With their bureaucratic ways of working, the intelligence agencies are also struggling.

There is a dearth of language specialists. India's spy agency, the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW), is reported by insiders to have only two Arabic and two Chinese language specialists, hired from language schools.

But the best do not stay on because of poor wages, and one of the Chinese language specialists who was trained in cyber-technology quit to join one of India's top industrial groups.

"Things have to begin from scratch to boost internal security in India. Authorities should come clean to the people and tell them how bad the situation is and set time-bound targets to begin improving security infrastructure," says Praveen Swami.

Otherwise, he warns, India will continue to be one of the softest targets for terror strikes in the world.

 



Edited by chal_phek_mat - 05 December 2008 at 2:40pm

jagdu

IF-Dazzler

jagdu

Joined: 05 October 2007

Posts: 3139

Posted: 06 December 2008 at 11:19pm | IP Logged
cpm,
Even given the time, have the commando's ever struck back?
Do you think they do not know where the training camps are?
Do you think the airforce does not have unmanned drones?
It has been 37 years since there was a fearless general called Sam Manekshaw. 
Today the Indian forces want the US/Israel or some other forces to do their dirty work for them.
http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=941252&TPN=26
 
 


Edited by jagdu - 06 December 2008 at 11:23pm

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